Bad News for the PH

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

Stephen, you really had me worried as well. *whew* 22.00 is a very fair price. I could have probably stomached 25.00 for that matter. I don't remember the page count, fonts, type-sets, and what not, but many of the Savage Worlds hardcover setting-plotpoint books(in the past) were 30.00, so you guys are keeping things waaay cheap. Mind you, I'm not complaining about SW's prices either.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:09 pm

garydee wrote:
For some reason I actually like the small font size. Are you sure TLG can't keep it the same?

*chuckles* At this point, I'm sure. If I even suggested changing anything to Steve right now....

well.. it would be bad.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm

I say go with the price bump even if the printer gives you a better deal for the quantities. I also wouldn't object to it going as high as $24.95 but I know you guys have been keeping it purposely as low as possible to make the books as attractive an option as possible to pick and buy for those curious about the crusade.

At $21.99, it's still ridiculously inexpensive. I think if you bumped it by up to another $2 on top of that (but don't go over the 'mystical' $24 barrier) the majority of people would still consider it cheap compared to others. I say:

M
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:34 pm

I'm curious about what will happen to Paypal preorders. I'm perfectly willing to pay the extra cost.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:01 am

For the love of the gahds, bump up the font size. I see that there is one person who likes the smaller font, but at the very least put the font back to the 1st printing size. The font was getting too small. I'd gladly pay $25 for a few more pages so that my eyes will last a few years longer.

-O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:03 am

Hell no. Reduce the book size. Make it A4 and fit it into a little box. Call it C&C Basic and be done with it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:12 am

Omote wrote:
For the love of the gahds, bump up the font size. I see that there is one person who likes the smaller font, but at the very least put the font back to the 1st printing size. The font was getting too small. I'd gladly pay $25 for a few more pages so that my eyes will last a few years longer.

-O

As I already said, on the last page of this thread, the font size got bumped larger. Keep up with me here, dude!
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paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:26 am

serleran wrote:
Hell no. Reduce the book size. Make it A4 and fit it into a little box. Call it C&C Basic and be done with it.

+1

And screw paper quality, I hate the magazine glossy that became the "standard" for "professional" games with AD&D2e. If I can't make and erase notes in pencil without getting NCR ghosts, it's the wrong paper for a gaming book.

And give us a new, portable printing in 5x8. Doesn't even need a box.

cinderblock · Post by **cinderblock** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:32 am

The price is still very reasonable at 25 bucks. If it needs to be, do it. Thanks for lettin us know though. Your products still cost much less than other companies out there. And I usually complain about price increases incessantly.

Rigon · Post by **Rigon** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:34 am

I think I can live with the extra 2 dollars.
R-
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Thoom · Post by **Thoom** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 am

Like everyone said: no big deal. Says a lot about TLG that you're trying to keep it low price per today's standard and that you come on this board to tell us yourself. But frankly this is still a good price and I prefer more content for a little more $
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:49 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
As I already said, on the last page of this thread, the font size got bumped larger. Keep up with me here, dude!

I am trying to keep up, but I thought for the sake of us aging gen Xers that it needed to be repeated.
-O
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:51 am

paladin2019 wrote:
And screw paper quality...

Buddy have you seen the 3rd printing of the M&T? The paper in there is worthy. Well worth the expense in my estimation.

-O
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:04 am

Didn't really care for the glossy pages either. I'd have to peruse each printing, but I might still prefer the 1st.

Coleston the Cavalier · Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:13 am

Raise it to $24.95. TLG could use the extra $ to do more things and it will let new gamers know it is worth it.
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garydee · Post by **garydee** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:30 am

Omote wrote:
I am trying to keep up, but I thought for the sake of us aging gen Xers that it needed to be repeated.
-O

I guess I'm lucky. I'm an aging gen Xer and my eyesight hasn't deteriorated yet.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:32 am

*shakes crotchity old man fist* You damn kids!

-O
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:35 am

My vision was 20/20 until I hit my 40's. Been slowly, fortunately very slowly, degenerating ever since. Especially in my left eye.
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Dragondaddy · Post by **Dragondaddy** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:24 am

Omote wrote:
For the love of the gahds, bump up the font size. I see that there is one person who likes the smaller font, but at the very least put the font back to the 1st printing size. The font was getting too small. I'd gladly pay $25 for a few more pages so that my eyes will last a few years longer.

-O

Hahahhahaaaaa... I purloined my kidz magnifying glass!

Plus I create quik reference sheets for my games and convention games... in 11 Point font. Muhahhaha.....

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:29 am

Guys, we're giving you a license to go to $24.95, take it!!
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jaybird216 · Post by **jaybird216** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:14 am

+1 on the $24.95 price tag. That's a very minor investment for a book that has all of the required rules and will bring years of good use and endless hours of fun.
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:30 am

If $4 extra dollars went to hiring more freelancers so more books were written, ergo more CnC product to come out faster.

I'd pay it on every one of the core books and twice on Sunday.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:21 am

Yeah, count me as one who doesn't mind the price going up a few bucks. If we can get it at $20, that's cool, but I'll pay $25 without too much concern.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:15 am

paladin2019 wrote:
And screw paper quality,

I must say if the paper is too chinsy, the books look cheap. do you want that super thin nearly transparent paper they use in bibles? that would suck hard.

agreed the glossy for 3rd printing of PHB was not the best, but as I recall, I think Steve said that was an error on the printers part? not sure, I may be confabulating that.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:25 pm

IMO, I think $24.95 may be a bit on the high side if you remember the reason why TLG has fought to keep the price as low as it has been up to now.

Any one of us, myself included, would have no problem spending $24.95 on the book. However, none of us need to be convinced on the virtues of C&C.

Up to now, buying the two core books ran you $39.98. Certain single rulebooks in the hobby cost that much and sometimes a bit more. The low price was an additional incentive for those curious about the game to pick it since it was at a lower price.

Now, I agree in a price bump and I'm fine it being a bit higher than what Steve posted it was going to be. I'm just saying that the low price is a continued incentive for those who haven't picked up the game yet. A $22.99 to $23.99 bump would still make it inexpensive and possibly help TLG a bit more without losing that additional edge they've been employing this long.

M
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:36 pm

Relaxo wrote:
I must say if the paper is too chinsy, the books look cheap. do you want that super thin nearly transparent paper they use in bibles? that would suck hard.

agreed the glossy for 3rd printing of PHB was not the best, but as I recall, I think Steve said that was an error on the printers part? not sure, I may be confabulating that.

It was an error. The choice of paper in the new printings of the books is a very deliberate move. When I first showcased my C&C books a few years ago (2nd print PHB and 1st print M&T), the comment I got from a few friends I had that hadn't seen them before was that the paper stock looked 'cheap'. I had no problem with the paper that was used then. The next batch had the super glossy paper. I didn't mind it but I don't think it was an improvement. The new paper is fantastic though and I wouldn't want the paper changed in future printings of the books.

M
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:26 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
Up to now, buying the two core books ran you $39.98. Certain single rulebooks in the hobby cost that much and sometimes a bit more.

M

True on that

4E PHB retails for 34.99
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:35 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
IMO, I think $24.95 may be a bit on the high side if you remember the reason why TLG has fought to keep the price as low as it has been up to now.

Any one of us, myself included, would have no problem spending $24.95 on the book. However, none of us need to be convinced on the virtues of C&C.

Up to now, buying the two core books ran you $39.98. Certain single rulebooks in the hobby cost that much and sometimes a bit more. The low price was an additional incentive for those curious about the game to pick it since it was at a lower price.

Now, I agree in a price bump and I'm fine it being a bit higher than what Steve posted it was going to be. I'm just saying that the low price is a continued incentive for those who haven't picked up the game yet. A $22.99 to $23.99 bump would still make it inexpensive and possibly help TLG a bit more without losing that additional edge they've been employing this long.

M

I agree with mort on this.

And as conc mentioned, the 4e PHB is pricey, but this is not the most expensive RPG book, by far...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:44 pm

I think as long as most of us "die hards" order direct we will make things financially easier on TLG.

Even when you buy from TLG during their $10 sale you will be giving them more money on the PH than they would get through distribution.

Hmmm... $22. Does that mean the $10 sale will now be the $11 sale?
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:18 pm

Hey folks,

First off, thanks for the vote of confidence and support. It really is appreciated, makes it feel like we are all in this Crusade together.

As most of you know we struggle with price point around here a great deal and have since the company's begninning, launching our line of non-d20 books at 24 pages for 5.00, retail. I just noticed a general price creep in our soft back books and curtailed that. Davis has been a long advocate of keeping the price point of the CC material down, though he did get a look at the printer estimate for the PH this weekend and was a bit taken aback. Its gone up about 25% off the original (part of this is the paper quality issue, the lion share is general cost of paper).

Now, to answer a few questions and make a comment or two.

Any pre-orders stands where they are. If yours is in I'm not going to bill you, nor expect anything extra from you. ha! That's only fair, plus too much work.

The big problem on the price point is the value of the 19.99 for new customers. Mort correctly points this out. Once we jack that up and break the 'under 20 dollar' concept its gone. Now the value of this in the general market is relative and difficult to quantify. Aldo Ghiozzi has been pushing (he does our distribution and much of our marketing, if you've been to Gencon you've probably met him) for me to increase the price for some time as he explains that 19.99 achieved the purpose of establishing C&C as the inexpensive alternative and so long as we don't go nuts with an increase then its impact will be negligible. The down side to the low price point is retail shops don't earn as much from a C&C book compared to a D&D or other game system book, so their motivation to push C&C is somewhat reduced. Why push C&C and make 10 bucks when they can push system X and make 16 bucks.

Its a struggle. One we have to balance with time in to the project as much as cost of printing (which ranges into the thousands and thousands of dollars). The PH has always been under priced for industry standards, not terribly so because we've always had such a large community support which have propelled the cash flow issues allowing me to balance my sheets even with the lower price point. I'm not sure if that makes sense in writing but it does on paper over here. haha

But suffice it to say, its a hard road filled with many pit falls.

At $21.99 the increased profit will not off set the increased cost until I've sold a great many books, but it does allow for great cash flow on the project and I do expect good sales on this item. I've considered the $24.99 price tag and it certainly brings me to within an almost perfect killing field for this whole discussion, as my expected out the gate numbers should cover the increased cost. But like mort says, 25 bucks is a big leap.

Now, I've just gotten off the phone with the printer and building off an idea Mark had we might have come to a reasonable solution. Mark tore apart a book to see their signature bundles (these are the bundles they sew together then glue to the backing in your book). At 136 and even 140 pages we have half a signature. To print half a signature is more costly than to print a full signature. 128 is 8 signatures. 140 is 8.5 signatures.

So here is where I'm leaning now. The book will be increased to 144 pages, that 9 full signatures, the price will increase to $24.99 and the added pages will be filled with pictures of me sitting around drinking Dr. Pepper and getting yelled at by Breakdaddy for messing up my computers....hahaha

No, the 4 extra pages will have the character reference sheets returned to the book (presently removed) and the multiclassing rules added as an appendix and if room, something called the half class.

This becomes a good solution all the way around. You all have made me comfortable with a price increase, even up to 24.99, and the added content and pages are actually better covered by the increased price and bring more value to the player and consumer.

Thoughts continue to be welcome!

Steve
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