Bad News for the PH

Coleston the Cavalier · Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:26 pm

That's great news, Steve!
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:27 pm

*waits till the stunned silence wears off*
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:30 pm

Put in a character sheet (a standard one, like the Darlene-made version) and one of those dungeon map sheets, and, of course, a "product page" at the end... naturally, the two "reference sheets" will need to specifically state "may be photocopied for personal use" and you might even consider adding in a slight appendix covering the most commonly occurring things, like a redux of the spell lists by level, and situational combat modifiers or whatever... something that can be used without having to flip throughout the whole book to get. That would also make it more like ye books of olde...
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:36 pm

Sounds good to me!

So does this now mean the $10 sale will be the $12.50 sale? Or since the CKG and Of Gods and Monsters books are $30, is it now the $15 sale?
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:36 pm

and myths say trolls are supposed to be horrible critters. I'd say this news just put the kabosh to (most) of that rhetoric!
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Pat Payne · Post by **Pat Payne** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:09 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
Hey folks,

First off, thanks for the vote of confidence and support. It really is appreciated, makes it feel like we are all in this Crusade together.

No, thank you. You've given us something to be confident in, and a company to feel confident about. Really. You guys are aces in my book, and I'm proud to be a continuing customer and fan.

Troll Lord wrote:
Davis has been a long advocate of keeping the price point of the CC material down, though he did get a look at the printer estimate for the PH this weekend and was a bit taken aback. Its gone up about 25% off the original (part of this is the paper quality issue, the lion share is general cost of paper).

I wonder how much of it may also be the general downturn in the economy also forcing economies of scale to drive prices up generally as well (printers perhaps not getting as much work, so to break even they have to raise their prices per job).

Troll Lord wrote:
Any pre-orders stands where they are. If yours is in I'm not going to bill you, nor expect anything extra from you. ha! That's only fair, plus too much work.

Thanks!

Troll Lord wrote:
The big problem on the price point is the value of the 19.99 for new customers. Mort correctly points this out. Once we jack that up and break the 'under 20 dollar' concept its gone. Now the value of this in the general market is relative and difficult to quantify.

That is the tough point. Last year, I was able to afford to give a PH to each of my players who hadn't had one as a Christmas gift, because they were so inexpensive. And there are many players who like the idea of a game that you don't have to sink a major financial investment into. That's really the charm of C&C -- it's not "arm-and-a-leg" to play like D&D 4e or the most egregious example, RIFTS/Palladium (seriously -- one of the guys in my group has an entire bookshelf devoted solely to Palladium stuff... ). Still, the new pricing, coupled with the fact that all you actually need to play the game is the PH and M&T should alleviate the price point concerns.

Yeah, you might lose a few who can't afford it, but I doubt that many. And still $25 is a heck of a lot cheaper than the 4e books, which a) are right now on the doorstep of $40 per book, and b) have to have multiple core books bought year after year just to play the game correctly.

Troll Lord wrote:
So here is where I'm leaning now. The book will be increased to 144 pages, that 9 full signatures, the price will increase to $24.99 and the added pages will be filled with pictures of me sitting around drinking Dr. Pepper and getting yelled at by Breakdaddy for messing up my computers....hahaha

No, the 4 extra pages will have the character reference sheets returned to the book (presently removed) and the multiclassing rules added as an appendix and if room, something called the half class.

Not bad! We're already getting a considerable increase in pages over the original PH anyway, so might as well go full throttle. And still, for a hardbound, 8.5X11, well-bound book of its type, $25's still right about a reasonable price point -- I've been buying history books that are smaller in hardcover for might-as-well-call-it $30 these days. The multiclassing rules you're looking at... are those the same ones from Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh setting, BTW?

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:14 pm

serleran wrote:
Put in a character sheet (a standard one, like the Darlene-made version) and one of those dungeon map sheets, and, of course, a "product page" at the end... naturally, the two "reference sheets" will need to specifically state "may be photocopied for personal use" and you might even consider adding in a slight appendix covering the most commonly occurring things, like a redux of the spell lists by level, and situational combat modifiers or whatever... something that can be used without having to flip throughout the whole book to get. That would also make it more like ye books of olde...

This is a brilliant Idea.

Do It!
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:27 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
Hey folks,

...

So here is where I'm leaning now. ...

Steve

Sold. I'm putting my money were my mouth is.

Grey · Post by **Grey** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:29 pm

WOW! I miss a couple of days on the computer and all this happens! Anyway, since I'm in UK, prices tend to be dependant upon the $ to , so change to $24.95 is absolutely fine, PLUS extra bits, chance of multiclassing rules etc. all makes this seem even MORE exciting!
Keep up the great work

D.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:37 pm

This sounds like a win-win, really. It seems in-line with standard TLG policy of a lot of bang for your buck. Having multi-classing rules in there makes all the since in the world. Which ones will they be? Having a PC sheet makes sense as well.

In any event, again, sounds like a great comprise. Raising the price, but adding more content. That's pretty hard to argue with in my opinion.

One a side note, I'm not a big fan of the official PC sheet (i.e., this one http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/ccchasheet.pdf). Which is the Darlene one Ser mentions?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:48 pm

Frost wrote:
One a side note, I'm not a big fan of the official PC sheet (i.e., this one http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs/ccchasheet.pdf). Which is the Darlene one Ser mentions?

That would be the Darlene one Serleran mentions.
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:56 pm

Ha, ok. Well I'm more partial to something like those made by the Mad Irishman: http://www.mad-irishman.net/pub_candc.html. In particular, I like how the Mad Irishman ones provide a spot for a total attack bonus for weapons, etc.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:11 pm

Good news all around I think... the added material is a plus and does help justify the leap to the higher price point very well. The possible (probable?) inclusion of a set of multiclass rules will also silence those detractors who have considered this a 'problem' in the past printings for having not including them in the first place.

M
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:15 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
That would be the Darlene one Serleran mentions.

Not a fan either... a couple things seem 'odd' to me when I look at it. However, having a character sheet included in a book is a must IMO. If someone is unhappy, they can always design their own and the 'base' character sheet can be a model they can build from.

M
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:30 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
The possible (probable?) inclusion of a set of multiclass rules will also silence those detractors who have considered this a 'problem' in the past printings for having not including them in the first place.

M

Yeah, but putting in them in an appendix is a nice touch as well because it still makes them more optional than canon.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:31 pm

I like/prefer Darlene's when the game is low level, but around 5th/6th level I do usually switch to the Mad Irishmans sheets, especially his 2E style C&C spell sheets when I am playing a spell caster.

In fact his sheets some times make me wish I had a full Adobe version so I could use them for my on line PC's too.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:36 pm

I love it. More information equals plenty of justification for a $5.00 price increase, plus the additional material is really worth it in my mind. So bring that s**z on!

-O
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Camazotz · Post by **Camazotz** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:15 pm

Well, considering I was saving up $30 for all of the 4th Crusade books (I pretty much just figured there was a price hike) and I already feel like a bandit on the M&T 3rd printing.....this all sounds great to me!

Actually, I thought for some reason the KCG and G&M were going to be $40 each so a $30 pricepoint rocks, too.

It's pretty much just C&C, Traveller and BRP/CoC for me these days, anyway.....so I have plenty of cash waiting for more TLG products.....
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:20 pm

Frost wrote:
Yeah, but putting in them in an appendix is a nice touch as well because it still makes them more optional than canon.

My thoughts as well Frost!

M
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:42 pm

See, wasn't it a better idea on hold back the PHB4 now? That, and with the extras added (like multiclassing, which is probably the best idea for the PHB4) is all adding a lot of good press for TLG I think. Go forth Crusaders and spread the word of the glorious things to be found in the newest PHB tome!

-O
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:21 pm

Omote wrote:
See, wasn't it a better idea on hold back the PHB4 now? That, and with the extras added (like multiclassing, which is probably the best idea for the PHB4) is all adding a lot of good press for TLG I think. Go forth Crusaders and spread the word of the glorious things to be found in the newest PHB tome!

-O

Agreed. I'm actually glad I haven't preordered yet, because I don't to feel like I'm robbing the Trolls blind. I'll gladly pay the additional $5.
I'm mixed on the multiclass rules being included. On one hand, I feel that they should have been in there. But, in this day of player entitlement, I wouldn't be suprised if many come to consider these multiclass rules to be the de facto rules. And if for some reason I don't like them, I'd hate to hear, "Well, they're in the PHB..." in an attempt to try to strongarm me as the CK to allow something simply becuase of it's inclusion in the PHB. Don't mind me, I'm just prattling.
Good news, Steve! Thanks for the update!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:24 pm

I really hope multiclassing rules are not included in the PHB... doing so, in my opinion, goes against years of C&Cs design language. Might as well just call it C&C 2nd edition at that point, due to cumulative "changes."

Anyway, if it goes in, clearly label it as an option, in the back of the book... not in the class section at all.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:32 pm

serleran wrote:
I really hope multiclassing rules are not included in the PHB... doing so, in my opinion, goes against years of C&Cs design language. Might as well just call it C&C 2nd edition at that point.

*points* Boo! Anyways, multiclassing guidelines have been in the game since Spring of 2006 with Crusader #4. And since they are in the appendix, in my estimation, they're all optional anyway.

-O
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:07 pm

Whew! From reading the thread title I thought the PHB was going to be cancelled or something.

I understand working to stay under $20 and it was amazing that you guys did it for so long. It was even more amazing that the latest was slated at the same price point. I have no problem paying a few more bucks for more content especially with taking inflation into consideration.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:20 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Agreed. I'm actually glad I haven't preordered yet, because I don't to feel like I'm robbing the Trolls blind. I'll gladly pay the additional $5.
I'm mixed on the multiclass rules being included. On one hand, I feel that they should have been in there. But, in this day of player entitlement, I wouldn't be suprised if many come to consider these multiclass rules to be the de facto rules. And if for some reason I don't like them, I'd hate to hear, "Well, they're in the PHB..." in an attempt to try to strongarm me as the CK to allow something simply becuase of it's inclusion in the PHB. Don't mind me, I'm just prattling.
Good news, Steve! Thanks for the update!

Well, to forestall that, there's a big honking Appendix: OPTIONAL RULES across the top of the page.
Plus, there's a bit about "The CK is the final arbitrator as to whether these rules will be used in their game"

So ya, what Steve mentioned earlier is going in there.
Oh. ya... the character sheet has been changed. *pokes his head back into his burrow and scribbles away*
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:09 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Oh. ya... the character sheet has been changed. *pokes his head back into his burrow and scribbles away*

Excellent! Any chance of a preview?
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:28 am

Hate the news -- I'm now tempted to buy the new printing....

dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:48 am

How about an index? (please please)

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:52 am

dunbruha wrote:
How about an index? (please please)

No room. And really not necessary.

Might put something like that in the CKG that encompasses the 3 main books though.
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dunbruha · Post by **dunbruha** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:06 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
No room. And really not necessary.

Maybe not necessary, but darn useful, in my opinion. And there could be room, just take out the multiclassing rules...

gideon_thorne wrote:
Might put something like that in the CKG that encompasses the 3 main books though.

better than nothing, I suppose.