Bad News for the PH

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:18 am

Why have indexes become so rare any more? Anyone with a basic knowledge of Word can make one. And, they are helpful when rules questions come up in the game.
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:27 am

I'm still onboard at 25.00. I hope it provides some profit for TLG, but I also hope "newbies" will shell out that amount for the book. I'm not bothered by multi-classing being in the back of the book. I do sort of agree with those who would like an index. That seems to be a complaint I hear about many rpg's. Would love to see that new character sheet as well. Still would like something that embodies an old school feel, and definately not too modern, or computer-generated looking.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:14 am

A nice index or THOROUGH table of contents would be helpful.
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boxcornersdiety · Post by **boxcornersdiety** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:23 am

One of my favorite things about the C&C PHB is its thinness compared to other gaming books. In general I would prefer a thinner/cheaper PHB and a fatter CKG.

But if you're adding pages anyway...

1. A list of all tables would be totally worth a page. Also a compilation of commonly used tables on 1-2 pages at the end of the book would be pretty useful.

2. A single-page spell list would be nice.

3. I think an index isn't necessary. Better to improve the table of contents than add an incomplete index.

4. Think long and hard about adding the multi-classing rules to the PHB. Detractors will be silenced when the CKG is available anyhow...

5. Please don't introduce new errors (e.g. spell page # references)!

Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:15 am

Great news Steve.

More content.

All killer, no filler!
I would consider more combat oriented optional rules and put the multi-classing options in the CKG, IMO, FWIW.

I too would like an index, but posting one on the "support" section of TLG.com would work for me too.

but you know what... give it a month and everyone memorizes the pages of the stuff they use most anyway, so don't spend more than a hour on the index.

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:02 pm

boxcornersdiety wrote:
5. Please don't introduce new errors (e.g. spell page # references)!

For the love of Crom, I concur. Rather than spending time on an index, use that time to give the PH a very thorough proofreading read-through to avoid out-dated references and anything else.
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anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:33 pm

dunbruha wrote:
Maybe not necessary, but darn useful, in my opinion. And there could be room, just take out the multiclassing rules...

better than nothing, I suppose.

Then I second a detailed TOC (details to include page numbers for masterwork items, etc).

Malakor · Post by **Malakor** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:32 pm

Just out of curiosity, with the changes being made, what is the estimated shipping date for the PHB now?

Btw, Thanks for the heads up on all of this, really looking forward to seeing the new book.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:42 pm

25 dolla? Werd.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

If you think about it the extra $4 can go a long way to help TLG. I would consider the hike as a way of funding things like C&C Basic (nudge nudge, hint), the rest of the A series, more Haunted Highlands stuff and so on.
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jaguar451 · Post by **jaguar451** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:41 am

Maybe an index as a PDF download....

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:44 am

jaguar451 wrote:
Maybe an index as a PDF download....

Hmmm...l Maybe the Society can use our "Chats" to do a collaborative Index to provide as a PDF?

IF no one else has them, I have bought the PDF copies of the M&T second printing and PH 3rd printing.

Maybe if we could get the Trolls to trust a few of us with up to date PDF's? At least those Society members who have signed NDA's?

That will make it easier to do an index with copy paste abilities. Plus maybe we could make an openoffice version and create a fully indexed working PDF version.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:18 pm

An index collaboration has been proposed before... it pretty much wound up dead in the water:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 637#368637

A spreadsheet was set up on Google Shared Docs (or whatever it was called) to better co-ordinate and share the workload but aside from a couple of other volunteers but next to little interest, it was soon forgotten.

I don't mind that there isn't an index for the PHB. When this idea was first proposed, the book was just into it's second printing. The newer printing changes everything anyway.

However, if people are serious, then I think this would be a perfect project for the Society. Nominate someone to to act as project leader and make a go of it.

M
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:10 pm

But don't use Google to do it, as they claim they own anything produced with it... heh.
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Eisenmann · Post by **Eisenmann** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:51 pm

Just to throw it out there... a PDF index was put together for the Savage Worlds Explorer Edition. It has come in handy so many times.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:56 pm

I agree with an idex for the PHB....but for goodness sake, put it in the book! It shouldn't be no more than a page, two if you get really fancy.

I also agree with boxcornerdiety's point #4 in his above post. That's what I was kind of saying before. I think they'll become the de facto "official" rules, whether they're intended that way or not.

I'd rather see a page or two of low, low level monsters so someone could buy the book straight out and maybe run an encounter or two. Maybe some goblin stats and skeleton stats, and maybe even some wilves or something natural like that. I'm thinking back to the original 3rd Edition PHB (D&D) and it was real nice to get a few pages of monsters and treasure. There were about a half a dozen fully-statted monsters, about a dozen monsters with just stat blocks, very basic treasure tables, a few treasures from each "type" described, and a sample dungeon!

I actually think that would be a great idea, but I don't know what the Trolls would think. A "Monsters & Treasure Primer" with about 6-10 monster entries, maybe a handful of treasures, and a blank dungeon map. I think that would be kick ass! Think about it, Trolls!
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:39 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
I agree with an idex for the PHB....but for goodness sake, put it in the book! It shouldn't be no more than a page, two if you get really fancy.

I also agree with boxcornerdiety's point #4 in his above post. That's what I was kind of saying before. I think they'll become the de facto "official" rules, whether they're intended that way or not.

I'd rather see a page or two of low, low level monsters so someone could buy the book straight out and maybe run an encounter or two. Maybe some goblin stats and skeleton stats, and maybe even some wilves or something natural like that. I'm thinking back to the original 3rd Edition PHB (D&D) and it was real nice to get a few pages of monsters and treasure. There were about a half a dozen fully-statted monsters, about a dozen monsters with just stat blocks, very basic treasure tables, a few treasures from each "type" described, and a sample dungeon!

I actually think that would be a great idea, but I don't know what the Trolls would think. A "Monsters & Treasure Primer" with about 6-10 monster entries, maybe a handful of treasures, and a blank dungeon map. I think that would be kick ass! Think about it, Trolls!

CS Perkinds already has the start of a monster primer made up on his website.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:43 pm

LD, that's a sweet idea!

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:03 pm

I'm sorry folks there won't be an index. We are slipping way behind schedule on this project as it is, and I mean way behind schedule. Its impacting Gods and Monsters, Tainted Lands and the CKG. These books have to be out by Gencon or that show is going to be a problem for us. We have to put this book to bed and move on to Gods and Tainted, an proper Index is difficult and time consuming.

I have opted to fill the pages with

1 character reference sheet

2 back of CRS

3 Multi classing Rules

4 Class and a Half Rules

I think the pdf Index is a GREAT idea and we'll make it a part of the new C&C Society pages. I'll begin work on it as soon as some of these projects get put to bed.

Sorry to dissapoint folks.

Steve
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:11 pm

Don't see a need to apologize, we're all just throwing ideas at you.

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:56 pm

Troll Lord wrote:
We have to put this book to bed and move on to Gods and Tainted, an proper Index is difficult and time consuming.

I have opted to fill the pages with

1 character reference sheet

2 back of CRS

3 Multi classing Rules

4 Class and a Half Rules

Sorry to dissapoint folks.

Steve

I'm not disappointed in the slightest!
M
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:19 pm

moriarty777 wrote:
I'm not disappointed in the slightest!
M

Nor am I Steve, and I understand your need to get it out the door. I still think the #3 and #4 points should be in the CKG, but that's my own personal view. But make no mistake, I'm not disappointed.

Relaxo wrote:
LD, that's a sweet idea!

Thanks, Relaxo! I think it would be cool, in my opinion. With a book dedicated to optional/variant rules in the CKG, I wouldn't add them to the PHB. Especially after all this time. I think an M&T primer would be the way to go...lets people jump into an adventure after one purchase. But it's only a suggestion. Again, I'm just glad we're getting some hardback rulebook goodness coming soon!
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:19 am

Yeah, I sounds sweet already, so more content is always cool. I like having a character sheet in the PHB.

anglefish · Post by **anglefish** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:37 am

Stupid question, what a "Class and a Half"

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:56 am

anglefish wrote:
Stupid question, what's a "Class and a Half"

You'll find out when ya see the book.
It's a way to break up the archetypes a bit, same with Multi Classing.
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garydee · Post by **garydee** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:16 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
You'll find out when ya see the book.

BOOOOOOOO!

Thoom · Post by **Thoom** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:39 am

Stupid question #2: what's a "back of CRS" ?
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:42 am

Thoom wrote:
Stupid question #2: what's a "back of CRS" ?

CRS. Character Record Sheet. I don't know why Steve couldn't have just mentioned a double sided sheet either.
At least, this time, its set up back to back.
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CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:32 am

Troll Lord wrote:
I think the pdf Index is a GREAT idea and we'll make it a part of the new C&C Society pages. I'll begin work on it as soon as some of these projects get put to bed.

What is C&C Society pages?

Thought about putting the index or other stuff in the Crusader?

Alternate character sheets in the Crusader?
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:44 am

CharlieRock wrote:
What is C&C Society pages?

Click on the link in my sig.
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Bad News for the PH

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