The Hobbit ~ coming to a theater near you... maybe.

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:28 am

Akrasia wrote:
Well, to clarify, I agree that some of Jackson's decisions were not true to the spirit of the LotR (and I think that the 'character assasination' of Denethor was far more serious than what he did with Theoden and Faramir, both of whom at least remained sympathetic, heroic characters in some sense; Denethor was a true 'tragic hero' in the novels, but comes across as a psychotic goof in the film).

So I probably should not have said 'best job possible' when describing the films.

However, I do think that Jackson did a 'very good job' in translating LotR, given the medium and market demands.

If Jackson only had to appease hardcore Tolkien fans, I have no doubt that we would have seen a very different set of films.

But he had to appease a wider audience, the majority of which would not be familiar with the novels at all. Given that constraint, I think he did a very good job (perhaps not the 'best possible', but much better than I feared, and much better than 99 percent of other directors).

As a hardcore Tolkien fan, I know I would have been frustrated by the films had I expected a completely faithful adaptation. However, I dropped that expectation right away, and subsequently enjoyed the films for what they were.

The problem is, that only a fraction of those who viewed the films had actually read the novel. So, why introducing those, plainly put: stupid, changes? It was done to do things the "hollywood way", and to "appease" the mass market.

I can understand removing a character, or cutting scenes to make the story go "faster", but I find absolutely wrong introducing changes just for the sake of it.

- Why exchanging the son of Elrond for his daughter? Because there must always be a "nice chick" in a film?!

- Why changing all the story about how Aragorn retrieves Narsil?

- Why Saruman is not followed until his end? He simply disappears!

- What all those ghosts do at Minas Tirith?! The battle could have been impressive even without an army of ghosts! Or, a separate scene could have been done of the battle at Pelargir.

- Frodo and Sam at Osgiliath?!

- and so on and so on

So, I agree, there were constraints to make the films, but some changes have been done "gratis", which not only do not "enhance the film", but in any case the original versions would have worked the same, considering the audience.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:06 pm

I disagree. Stongly.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:55 pm

First of all, I pretty much take all of my information regarding the changes done to the LOTR films from the director commentaries and other goodies found on the extended LOTR discs, as well as various interviews over the years.

However, what we also have to do is accept the fact that New Line Cinema fronted at least $300 million for this franchise and they wouldn't have done so without some guarentees on their money. For example, PJ probably had to say that he would expand the Arwen character to get the female audience in the theater. To me this is a given. Another example is the Haldir character. I'm sure his roll was expanded to get the actor on the screen a bit more, hence the elves coming to the aid of Aragon at Helm's Deep. There are probably many other examples of this spread throughout the films that we just don't know about.

..............................................Omote

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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:13 pm

It's like Stephen King. The scripts vary a great deal from the books. What works in a book doesn't necessarily work for a movie. Harry Potter, especially the last one...a lot of people were upset over the lack of a house elf side plot, as in the book, for instance. It probably would not have worked in the movie. As it is, there was a minimum of change in LOTR compared to some other movies made from books.

I was thinking about this last night. After having watched Riverworld on the sci-fi channel I got to thinking maybe I would read the books and see what happens as they travel up the river and so on. When I looked at the Phillip Jose Farmer stories as initially written I could see very little resemblance between book and movie. In fact the only reason I liked the movie was because I had not read the stories and had no preconceptions about it. So I understand why some of you Tolkien fans get upset over the changes that Jackson made, but at least give it credit for being a good movie. For some of us, who are casual readers or perhaps even don't care for Tolkiens' pedantic (come on, you know it is) style the movie is a masterpiece. And I am no Jackson fanboy, either. I think most of his other stuff is pretty bad to uneven at best.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:28 pm

How can you not like Dead Alive? Or, as its called elsewhere... Brain Damage? I mean... come on! The lawnmower massacre is beautiful!

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:31 pm

How about 'Bad Taste'?

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:35 pm

andakitty wrote:
It's like Stephen King. The scripts vary a great deal from the books. What works in a book doesn't necessarily work for a movie.

I'm one who thinks King's stuff is better on the screen than it is in a book.

You're right about the book to movie transition. I can still appreciate the movie versions though. 13th Warrior is a good example for me, Eaters of the Dead (the book it was adapted from..which in turn was adapted from the Ibn Fadlan Manuscript with Beowulf inspirations as well). The book was great, the movie vaired from the book in a number of ways but I still liked the movie as well.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:38 pm

Antonio Banderas is thrown a big Nordic broadsword.

"This is too big. I cannot carry this."

"Grow stronger!"

Gotta love them Norsemen. =)

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:42 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Antonio Banderas is thrown a big Nordic broadsword.

"This is too big. I cannot carry this."

"Grow stronger!"

Gotta love them Norsemen. =)

Ink

Yeah, that was one of my favorite lines. My wife get's irritated when I throw the 'Grow stronger" at her whenever she needs my man muscles for something.

"The dog can jump." was good too.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:02 pm

So you are a wife teaser too? It is fun, but dangerous...

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:07 pm

Yeah, after all these years I'm amazed she hasn't throat punched me yet. I'm pretty good at sticking my foot in my mouth in a big, big way.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:25 pm

Inkpot wrote:
Antonio Banderas is thrown a big Nordic broadsword.

"This is too big. I cannot carry this."

"Grow stronger!"

Gotta love them Norsemen. =)

More good 13th Warrior lines:

*Antonio flings around new-fangled curved sword*

Norseman: "When you die, can I give [that sword] that to my sister?"

.............................................Omote

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dcs · Post by **dcs** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:13 pm

Akrasia wrote:
Well, to clarify, I agree that some of Jackson's decisions were not true to the spirit of the LotR (and I think that the 'character assasination' of Denethor was far more serious than what he did with Theoden and Faramir, both of whom at least remained sympathetic, heroic characters in some sense; Denethor was a true 'tragic hero' in the novels, but comes across as a psychotic goof in the film).

I wouldn't know -- I never saw the third movie.

What I saw with Theoden, Faramir, and to a lesser extent with Treebeard was that characters who were not part of the 'Fellowship' could not grasp the direness of the situation they were in without help from members of the 'Fellowship'. For example, Theoden is a wuss and has to be convinced by Aragorn to ride forth against the orcs at Helm's Deep rather than hide in a cave with old women. Why anyone would follow such a king is beyond me. Treebeard doesn't understand the enormity of the threat posed by Saruman until Merry and Pippin show him all the trees felled by orcs. Some shepherd of trees he is, if he doesn't even know what orcs are doing in his woods. This latter sequence is wholly unnecessary and the time could have been put to better use.

Quote:
As a hardcore Tolkien fan, I know I would have been frustrated by the films had I expected a completely faithful adaptation. However, I dropped that expectation right away, and subsequently enjoyed the films for what they were.

See, the thing is that I think it would have been entirely possible to please both those who aren't familiar with the novel and those who are.

Peronsally, I don't even really care about the Arwen thing mentioned by another poster (though I find it amusing that she is a 'strong' female character and yet, at least for a while, she allows herself to be bullied by her father to abandon Aragorn).
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:46 pm

Actually I have read the LOTR trilogy-multiple times-and the only problem I had with the movies was some of the over done CGI. So yes, it is definitely possible to please someone with both the books and the movies...as they were done.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:54 pm

I myself never made it past Tom Bombadill or whatever his name is. So I guess that puts me in the realm of the never-reads.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:08 pm

I've read LOTR every fall since I was thirteen.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:23 pm

I wish I could enjoy the novels more, I just can't. Thing is, I love middle-earth. I love the ideas and everything. I played MERPS for years because I just enjoy the setting so much.

Somehting about Tolkeins writing style just makes me grind my teeth reading it though.

andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:26 pm

I started to read it when I was about that age (thirteen). Didn't finish it until years later because I got sidetracked by Conan, Stormbringer, ERB, A. Merritt, Otis Adelbert Kline (ever hear of him?), and muchly other trashy pulp fiction (I say tongue in cheek, and affectionately).

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:34 pm

Well, you have to understand that Tolkien was infatuated with the old sagas....beowulf, arthur, etc. And, he was a philologist on top of that. One of his primary objectives in writing the Silmarillion and LOTR was to establish a 'singularly english mythology'. And, he wrote his mythology using the same writing style as those sagas he loved. He wanted his works to be just as scholarly and credible as the Mabinogion or the Eddas.

And besides...it just plain sounds cooler when he uses that archaic-sounding prose. I mean, it's not like he was writing about an angsty, scimitar-wielding dark elf who has regular emo-attacks......totally different audience, man.

*ducks*

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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:39 pm

See, that's just it.

Beowulf, various Icelandic sagas, Rydberg's work, etc. I read and enjoy them, Tolkein's just doesn't grab me though.

Go figure.

angelius · Post by **angelius** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:06 pm

I do like that oldish words and what not.

Vance, Lovecraft etc. But Tolkien...not so much strangely.
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Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:13 pm

"...And the Inkpot rose up against Angelius and Dangerdwarf, the pale steel of his sword capturing the light of the kindled stars in the heavens as he smote their ruin upon the trampled earth. For their hearts had been darkened against Tolkien and the light of the Blessed Realm did not rest upon them."

z0mg!!

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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:10 pm

Inkpot, I just noticed you are in Washington? Near Seattle/Bellevue?

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:15 pm

I'm about an 90 minutes (including a 30 min ferry ride) away from Seattle.
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:46 pm

I'm trying to get a C&C group together. Or join one. Be worth the trip once or twice a month, on Sundays? Probably not, I guess. Are you in a group now?

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:15 am

Yes, I'm in a group that meets every Sunday afternoon in Port Angeles. If you don't mind the trip, you're more than welcome to join us. We're trying to put together an organization of roleplayers in our neck of the woods and so far it's been a daunting task. Gamers in our area need to come out of the closet or something. I know for a fact that they're here, they just act like they're in hiding or something.
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andakitty · Post by **andakitty** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:36 am

Over here it's pretty much 3.5. Period. ...and Exalted.

90 minutes to Port Angeles for you?

I am afraid that is a major trip for me these days. Too bad. If you are ever in this neck of the woods let me know.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:47 am

Inkpot wrote:
"...And the Inkpot rose up against Angelius and Dangerdwarf, the pale steel of his sword capturing the light of the kindled stars in the heavens as he smote their ruin upon the trampled earth. For their hearts had been darkened against Tolkien and the light of the Blessed Realm did not rest upon them."

ā tweone futon wi Inkpot t fleotes muan. r as menn geboden Inkpot witan Tolkein adrecce ylde wi slǽp.

((The 2 fought against Inkpot at the mouth of a stream. There these men commanded Inkpot to know that Tolkein afflicts mankind with sleep.))

Okay, it's been a few years since I was teaching myself old english, but that should be fairly close. My sentence structure is likely awful though.

Not bad for a redneck I think.
I originally tought myself passable old english to read some of the "classics" like Beowulf without the need for translations.

EDIT: I just got back from a BBQ where a large number of adult beverages may have been consumed by me. The more I think about that passage the more I'm sure I screwed it up. Bah.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:14 am

LOL

These forums are a constant joy to read, I swear....you can always count on them for a good old fashioned belly laugh now and again.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:23 am

I initially had a more epic passage in mind, but then realized it would be better to go with old english words I could actually half-remember of the top of my head.