Question about CL's (Challenge Levels)

[DaveyB]

Okay, so I'm finally about to run a C&C game for our group. One thing I've noticed on most of the character sheets is a space after your attributes for recording the "Challenge Base" if your stat is Primary or Secondary.

Are you supposed to tell the player what the CL is so that they can calculate the difficulty themselves or is this merely there for reference for some reason?? Thanks in advance!

[cinderblock]

Some of my players go ahead and figure their stat bonuses into the base of 12 0r 18 to facilitate quicker play. Sometimes I'll tell them the CL to add in other times not.
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[Lord Dynel]

cinderblock wrote:
Some of my players go ahead and figure their stat bonuses into the base of 12 0r 18 to facilitate quicker play. Sometimes I'll tell them the CL to add in other times not.

That's what my players do. And I do it the same way. But it's for reference more than anything, Davey.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Omote]

This has worked great for me, but I just ask the players to make a the check and have them tell me what they beat the check by. Since I already know the CL level in my mind, if the player beats the check by that amount or more, then the check is a success.

~O
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Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Omote wrote:
This has worked great for me, but I just ask the players to make a the check and have them tell me what they beat the check by. Since I already know the CL level in my mind, if the player beats the check by that amount or more, then the check is a success.

~O

I don't even tell my players that much. I simply tell them to roll what kind of die I want them to roll. I like keeping them in as much suspense as I can. I keep copies of all their character sheets in front of me (scans that I put into The Keep, which I keep running on my laptop during the game), so I know what they need to roll to beat the CL. Sometimes, obviously, I tell them. If they're rolling to hit, then obviously I'll tell them to make that kind of roll. But when they're exploring the caverns, and I tell them to roll 1d20, they don't know if they're rolling a check to find secret doors, a saving throw, or whatever. It's fun.

[gideon_thorne]

DaveyB wrote:
Okay, so I'm finally about to run a C&C game for our group. One thing I've noticed on most of the character sheets is a space after your attributes for recording the "Challenge Base" if your stat is Primary or Secondary.

Are you supposed to tell the player what the CL is so that they can calculate the difficulty themselves or is this merely there for reference for some reason?? Thanks in advance!

Well, your challenge level is either a 12 or an 18. The space on the sheet is there for players to put a pre calculated number, with the characters modifiers, in there if they wish.
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Peter Bradley

[DaveyB]

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, your challenge level is either a 12 or an 18. The space on the sheet is there for players to put a pre calculated number, with the characters modifiers, in there if they wish.

There are already places for your pre-calculated ability mods. Perhaps I'm not understanding the SIEGE mechanic correctly? I thought the equation was:

CC=CB + CL

Say a CC of 17 would be a Prime of 12 + 5 for difficulty. Adding their attribute (for instance a +3) to they base would be a 15. Is it just for ease of reference to say "Hey, I only need to roll a 2" to pass? Seems redundant to do that instead of just adding your ability mod to whatever you roll on the d20. Am I missing something?

[gideon_thorne]

DaveyB wrote:
There are already places for your pre-calculated ability mods. Perhaps I'm not understanding the SIEGE mechanic correctly? I thought the equation was:

CC=CB + CL

Say a CC of 17 would be a Prime of 12 + 5 for difficulty. Adding their attribute (for instance a +3) to they base would be a 15. Is it just for ease of reference to say "Hey, I only need to roll a 2" to pass? Seems redundant to do that instead of just adding your ability mod to whatever you roll on the d20. Am I missing something?

The player is generally not going to know the difficulty of the encounter, so there is no reason why they would pre calculate it on their character sheet.

So if a character has an ability that is prime, and they have an attribute mod that's a +2, the space on the sheet is so they can put the base number 10 down. And they can factor in their level, which would make that 10 go down depending on what level it is.

The CK, on their end, would mentally tack the challenge number on the base 12 or 18, whichever it is.

So, ultimately, the player is not going to know what the final number is, or for sure whether they pass or fail, depending on the result of their die roll. Unless, of course, tis obvious.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[Lord Dynel]

DaveyB wrote:
There are already places for your pre-calculated ability mods. Perhaps I'm not understanding the SIEGE mechanic correctly? I thought the equation was:

CC=CB + CL

Say a CC of 17 would be a Prime of 12 + 5 for difficulty. Adding their attribute (for instance a +3) to they base would be a 15. Is it just for ease of reference to say "Hey, I only need to roll a 2" to pass? Seems redundant to do that instead of just adding your ability mod to whatever you roll on the d20. Am I missing something?

Maybe I lost you, Davey, but I don't think they'd need to roll a 2 to pass. I use the Target Number (TN) designation for what is needed to roll. In your example, the TN is 17. Taking the attribute modifier of +3 from your example into account, then that brings the TN down to 14. So the player would need to roll a 14 or better (CB of 12, CL of 5 = 17, vs. roll +3).

Now if you keep the TN a secret, which I almost always do, and allow them to jot the numbers down on their sheets like you suggested, in the example above (the Prime 12 and the +3 attribute modifier) the player may have 9 by their attribute score (as the +3 technically reduces the Check by three). To me, this makes it a little more complicated because as the CK, you have the TN in mind (17) and the 9 really doesn't mean too much. When a player rolls the die, the result and the 9 won't correlate. They'll still have to do it the long way, unless they tell you that they beat a CL of X. Using your numbers above, if a player rolls a d20 and gets an 18, they can tell you that they beat a CL of 9 ( as 18 is 9 over their modified "Prime 12 + 3"). So if the CK doens't mind just looking at CL's then you're good. The good thing is with this is that the CK doesn't have to keep track of what is prime and what is not.

To me that's a little too much to get messed up (and I like to know the players' Primes), so my players write down 12 or 18 (or just "P" or nothing) next to each attribute. I have a cheat sheet that tells me what scores are Prime for each character. They roll, add their attribute and give me a score. If it isn't good enough then I'll let them know if they pass or fail the check. Usually they know and cna even tell me this way what CL they've beaten.

So any way is usually good.
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Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[CharlieRock]

Sometimes it will be obvious to a PC what his challenge level will be. Like picking a rusty lock while hanging suspended upside down from a rope above a roaring flame. A PC would know that this is going to be kinda tricky, so telling the player is something that can happen. It might even tip them off to try and work in a few modifiers to his benefit. Like using a potion of levitation while attempting this act.

On the other hand there will be times when the PC is never going to know what the CL was. Such as negotiating with a monarch who does not share a common language and has exotic customs to boot. The PC is never going to know if this guy was going to go ahead and raise the reward paid or had to be tricked into it. In this case telling the player the CL would not be appropriate and may even spoil some fun.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Lord Dynel]

CharlieRock wrote:
Sometimes it will be obvious to a PC what his challenge level will be. Like picking a rusty lock while hanging suspended upside down from a rope above a roaring flame. A PC would know that this is going to be kinda tricky, so telling the player is something that can happen. It might even tip them off to try and work in a few modifiers to his benefit. Like using a potion of levitation while attempting this act.

On the other hand there will be times when the PC is never going to know what the CL was. Such as negotiating with a monarch who does not share a common language and has exotic customs to boot. The PC is never going to know if this guy was going to go ahead and raise the reward paid or had to be tricked into it. In this case telling the player the CL would not be appropriate and may even spoil some fun.

Agreed.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.