Troll Lord Games

Not really a review as I haven't had time to sit, read and digest, but here's my off-the-cuff reactions.

The softcovers have the new art bounded in the same green as the M&T 3rd printing (and the softcovers of Gods & Monsters which surfaced Saturday night). I think this is good from a marketing & branding standpoint; if I'm looking at a row of books on the shelf or rack at a game store, these are obviously all related but distinct. The paper quality is much better than the shiny stuff in the PHB 3rd printing.

The barbarian has been changed extensively. I'm still digesting these changes but it looks like Primal Force & Primal Fury are gone. The new class skills look to provide some additional utility for any adventuring group (except perhaps a purely urban one).

I like many of the new illusionist spells, and there's some more purely offensive options in the mix. I'm on the fence about a few, such as the one that boosts a target's attribute, though I can see a chain of reasoning that says "it's all in the character's mind, and what's in the mind can be made real with magic". Gotta read these through and think on them.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that there's a new archmage in town - there's a whole line of illusionist spells entitled "Ward's...."
The layout of the equipment section is now a little more logical and user-friendly.

For those in favor of putting the racial descriptions before the classes - no dice. It still seems to work, though.

Discovered a few minor changes to spell descriptions in play over the weekend - nothing game-changing, just things like dropping the random roll for creature type in "Summon Swarm", a true hidden gem in the 2nd level druid repertoire.

For those others who have it - what do you think?
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

I can say this as a guy who had no idea what was going to happen with the Barbarian in the 4th print: The Barbarian is now a class that I would actually play. Before it was weak and pretty bland, IMO.

Good to see that the new barbarian is getting some love. I can't wait to read how it is presented in the new PHB4.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

It'll be interesting to see how the new Barbarian class works out. A lot of players(of various fantasy games) always seem to have the impression of the rampaging berserker. Will some people be turned off because of the new take? It's hard to say. I tried to glance at some of the changes, but it's hard to do when you're driving home. Peter's barbarian sketch was fantastic. Have had a chance to check out those new spells, or the specifics of what changed with the monk. I would have thought encumbrance value would have been scrapped, or re-tooled at least. Best not to get bogged down with weights too much. Common sense usually rules the day when it comes to that sort of thing. I would have been happy to just buy a hard cover, and eventually the pdf. That said, a hardcover isn't available. SOOOOO...I just couldn't resist the softcover. As Chico used to say..."Looking gooooood!".

Personally I was getting a bit tired of the old berserker barbarian, which was a throwback to the 1st edition days. It's nice to see a fresh coat of paint on that one, IMO. YMMV of course.

I have no problem with berserker rage being gone, but some potential new players might.

tylermo wrote:
I have no problem with berserker rage being gone, but some potential new players might.

Two words: House Rules.
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"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

Yes, but now there are two versions of the Barbarian available... the classic berserker type from in PHB1-3 and the new fangled barbarian in PHB4. Lots of options.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Since he no longer has his Primal abilities, could someone give a hint to what the new Barbarian's combat abilities are?

Omote wrote:
Yes, but now there are two versions of the Barbarian available... the classic berserker type from in PHB1-3 and the new fangled barbarian in PHB4. Lots of options.

~O

Three actually. There's Mishler's version if folks want yet another option.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Which says nothing for the countless versions posted on these very boards, some of which were quite interesting. Or, has everyone forgotten the boards are a source of ideas?
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

garydee wrote:
Since he no longer has his Primal abilities, could someone give a hint to what the new Barbarian's combat abilities are?

A couple of things come to mind:

First off, he can now intimidate enemies with a ferocious display. The reputation of his people is fearsome and strikes a blow to the morale of enemies.

Secondly, instead of a berserker attack he now has primal instincts, which allow him to throw himself with complete focus into the task at hand. This allows for no discussion or deliberation, but 100% dedication to the course of action he has decided on, whatever the cost. This allows for a steep bonus to most of his rolls for a predetermined amount of time.

Breakdaddy wrote:
A couple of things come to mind:

First off, he can now intimidate enemies with a ferocious display. The reputation of his people is fearsome and strikes a blow to the morale of enemies.

Secondly, instead of a berserker attack he now has primal instincts, which allow him to throw himself with complete focus into the task at hand. This allows for no discussion or deliberation, but 100% dedication to the course of action he has decided on, whatever the cost. This allows for a steep bonus to most of his rolls for a predetermined amount of time.

Actually, for an excellent example of how I think the new Barbarian abilities play out, there are some fantasy books by David Weber that cover it rather nicely.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Breakdaddy wrote:
A couple of things come to mind:

First off, he can now intimidate enemies with a ferocious display. The reputation of his people is fearsome and strikes a blow to the morale of enemies.

Secondly, instead of a berserker attack he now has primal instincts, which allow him to throw himself with complete focus into the task at hand. This allows for no discussion or deliberation, but 100% dedication to the course of action he has decided on, whatever the cost. This allows for a steep bonus to most of his rolls for a predetermined amount of time.

Thanks for the info! That does sound better than the primal stuff.

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on this once the hardback stuff is ready.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

serleran wrote:
Which says nothing for the countless versions posted on these very boards, some of which were quite interesting. Or, has everyone forgotten the boards are a source of ideas?

Wait ... we can actually use some of the ideas proposed on message boards? I assumed it was purely an academic discussion.
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Finarvyn

Lord Marshall, Earl of Stone Creek, C&C Society

C&C Playtester in 2003
OD&D player since 1975

finarvyn wrote:
Wait ... we can actually use some of the ideas proposed on message boards? I assumed it was purely an academic discussion.

Hehe!
And thanks for the on the barbarian! He's sounding cooler every time I hear about him.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

gideon_thorne wrote:
Actually, for an excellent example of how I think the new Barbarian abilities play out, there are some fantasy books by David Weber that cover it rather nicely.

Oh thanks, some new author to discover! Should I start with "Wind Rider's oath"?
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Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

Thoom wrote:
Oh thanks, some new author to discover! Should I start with "Wind Rider's oath"?

Only if you want to start with the third book in the series.

The one I linked is the first.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Just so happens that particular Weber book is currently part of Baen's free library. If you don't mind reading ebooks, check it out:
http://www.webscription.net/p-297-oath-of-swords.aspx

gideon_thorne wrote:
Only if you want to start with the third book in the series.

The one I linked is the first.

Doh!
Right!
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Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

Anything more about the illusionist? Every other game seems to throw that class in as a side note and has never gotten that much love. The illusionist is one of my favourite magic users and I personally would love to see a strong character class, for once.
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That is SIR! to you!

Sir Ironside wrote:
Anything more about the illusionist? Every other game seems to throw that class in as a side note and has never gotten that much love. The illusionist is one of my favourite magic users and I personally would love to see a strong character class, for once.

I only read the first two levels of new ones before I mailed my stuff home (so I didn't have to take it on the plane), and I can say they seemed to give the class more options, and the Dragon theme was cool too.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Sir Ironside wrote:
Anything more about the illusionist? Every other game seems to throw that class in as a side note and has never gotten that much love. The illusionist is one of my favourite magic users and I personally would love to see a strong character class, for once.

Agreed! I was very happy to see that C&C gave the illusionist a class of its own.

Treebore wrote:
I only read the first two levels of new ones before I mailed my stuff home (so I didn't have to take it on the plane), and I can say they seemed to give the class more options, and the Dragon theme was cool too.

I'm sorry...what was that? Dragon theme?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Agreed! I was very happy to see that C&C gave the illusionist a class of its own.



I'm sorry...what was that? Dragon theme?

Some of the spells that Jim Ward wrote are dragon themed.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

I am also very happy that the illusionist class got some luv in the 4th printing. I always liked the illusionist in my AD&D games but felt he was shortchanged by the rules. It also depended a lot on how the GM handled illusions (it could go either way). It's a big part of why I'm eagerly waiting my pre-order to come in.

The new barbarian looks intriguing too. Look forward to try it.
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Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

The Illusionist class didn't change at all right? It was just the addition of spells to the class list.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
The Illusionist class didn't change at all right? It was just the addition of spells to the class list.

~O

From what I understand it's 45 new spells and also rules on how to handle illusions in the game, which is a big part of making an illusionist interesting IMHO.
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Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

Omote wrote:
The Illusionist class didn't change at all right? It was just the addition of spells to the class list.

~O

I think there were some minor textual changes. But most of the changes were in the section under magic on how Illusions work.

Certainly, just cause there is an illusion present, doesn't mean the typical character is going to automatically know its there.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Steerpike wrote:
Just so happens that particular Weber book is currently part of Baen's free library. If you don't mind reading ebooks, check it out:
http://www.webscription.net/p-297-oath-of-swords.aspx

Thanks!