An Open Letter About Of Gods & Monsters

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Sir Osis of Liver
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Lord Dynel wrote:
I could see me calling the PHB, DMG, and MM "core" back in those days - they're what I took to most games back in those days. I support what ever the Trolls do, though, as it's their decision. I'm just along for the ride.

Good points LD, but if I'm not running a game, then the only thing I really take with me is a PHB and, if I'm running in 3.x, whichever splatbooks I need to run my character. Even at that, though, the Rules Compendium is all you really need anymore.

Only one person from a group NEEDS to own everything on top of the PHB. So from that standpoing, the PHB is the only real "Core" rulebook.

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More OG&M Suggestions

Post by AnthonyRoberson »

More suggestions...

The section on avatars on pgs. 6-7 needs to be tightened up and expanded. Following are some suggested additions:

AVATAR TRAITS

Immortal: As immortal creatures, avatars breath, but they have no need to eat, drink or sleep unless they wish to do so.

Plane Shift: Avatars can plane shift at will, as per the spell.

Language: Avatars can communicate with any creature in his native language or by telepathy as desired.

Spell Resistance: All avatars are resistant to mortal magic and should be considered to have at least SR 20, unless noted otherwise.

More to come...

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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by gideon_thorne »

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
More suggestions...

The section on avatars on pgs. 6-7 needs to be tightened up and expanded. Following are some suggested additions:

AVATAR TRAITS

Immortal: As immortal creatures, avatars breath, but they have no need to eat, drink or sleep unless they wish to do so.

Plane Shift: Avatars can plane shift at will, as per the spell.

Language: Avatars can communicate with any creature in his native language or by telepathy as desired.

Spell Resistance: All avatars are resistant to mortal magic and should be considered to have at least SR 20, unless noted otherwise.

More to come...

Somehow, I don't see rules expansions as 'errata'. This falls under the heading of personal preference.

If you want to track errata, might just stick to grammatical and typographical.
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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by AnthonyRoberson »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Somehow, I don't see rules expansions as 'errata'. This falls under the heading of personal preference.

If you want to track errata, might just stick to grammatical and typographical.

Will do (and there is plenty of it). But please note that nowhere in the subject or body of the post do I suggest that it is 'errata'. I specifically marked it as 'suggestions'.

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OG&M Errata

Post by AnthonyRoberson »

OG&M Errata...

p. 26 last paragraph.

'Shaman, clerics, and druids' - Shaman should be pluralized to Shamen (or is there another plural for the word?).

'(cast plant growth)' - the word cast should not be italicized.

p. 27 Artifact: Bow of Atira

first paragraph

'water doesn't' - there is an extra space between water and doesn't.

p. 27 Artifact: Quarterstaff of Atira

second paragraph

'prevents undead magical attacks from influencing the wielder' - what does this mean? Needs to be quantified in game terms.

p. 27 Atira Avatar

In the stats block, the quarterstaff is mentioned as being 'obsidian'. This is not mentioned in the writeup for the Artifact.

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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
More suggestions...

AVATAR TRAITS

Immortal: As immortal creatures, avatars breath, but they have no need to eat, drink or sleep unless they wish to do so.

More to come...

Dude...you misspelled "breathe". Proofread next time.

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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by gideon_thorne »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Dude...you misspelled "breathe". Proofread next time.

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Post by serleran »

Shaman is the plural of shaman. Shamen is not a word.

Just so you know.
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Post by Omote »

Guys, give AnthonyRoberson a little bit of a break. He is obviously a big fan of Castles & Crusades and brought to light an important topic.

Though, AnthonyRoberson, proofreading and errata compilation tends to be an exact science. Be careful to make sure your corrections are correct in both spelling and grammar. Go over what you see a few times, and even read aloud if necessary. Proofreading, error checking, etc. doesn't often include suggestions on how certain things should work to the authors. Just a heads up (sentence fragment).
Thanks for playing!

~O
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Post by Breakdaddy »

Im going to crack Omote over the head with a dictionary or phonebook. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. I just need for him to RECANIZE!
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Post by Omote »

Breakdaddy wrote:
Im going to crack Omote over the head with a dictionary or phonebook. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject at hand. I just need for him to RECANIZE!

Use Rogue Trader or Pathfinder and you have yourself a deal. For God's sake, I'm a gamer, man! Use proper tools. CONSIDER ME RECOGNIZED!

~O
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Post by Omote »

The bonus for God-Like attributes are incorrect at scores of 28 and 29. The bonus should be +8. An attribute score of 30 is a +9 bonus.

~O
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Post by Breakdaddy »

Omote wrote:
Use Rogue Trader or Pathfinder and you have yourself a deal. For God's sake, I'm a gamer, man! Use proper tools. CONSIDER ME RECOGNIZED!

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Re: OG&M Errata

Post by Sir Ironside »

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
'water doesn't' - there is an extra space between water and doesn't.

If the columns you are referring to are justified then you will find many of these "mistakes". The computer will adjust words and spaces to maintain the block shape of of the column, page etc. If it is just set up as "align text left" then you have found a mistake.

Like I said I haven't got the book, but I imagine they'd use justified because it looks cleaner.
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Re: OG&M Errata

Post by gideon_thorne »

Sir Ironside wrote:
If the columns you are referring to are justified then you will find many of these "mistakes". The computer will adjust words and spaces to maintain the block shape of of the column, page etc. If it is just set up as "align text left" then you have found a mistake.

Like I said I haven't got the book, but I imagine they'd use justified because it looks cleaner.

Yes, its justified text.
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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

gideon_thorne wrote:

Sorry. Sometimes I need to rein in the sarcasm.

Seriously, though, AR, if you have corrections to make, you might be best advised to take it up directly with the Trolls, and not publish it on the boards. When I write something, I welcome constructive criticism to make the product better. But I think it's a d*ck move to put that criticism out in a public forum. How would you feel if somebody did that to you? I think your comments would be welcome in the appropriate forum, but were it me, I'd have to really bite my tongue to keep from telling you where to go and what to do with yourself when you got there.

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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by gideon_thorne »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Sorry. Sometimes I need to rein in the sarcasm.

Seriously, though, AR, if you have corrections to make, you might be best advised to take it up directly with the Trolls, and not publish it on the boards.

Well, um, if you look back a few posts, you'll find both me and Steve said to post it here.
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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well, um, if you look back a few posts, you'll find both me and Steve said to post it here.

I would've gone straight to the Trolls first, though, instead of bitching on the boards about it. Sorry, but I think that's pretty damn rude. If you don't like it, then you try doing better.

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Post by Wasgo »

Frost wrote:
I think you could solve the "core" issue simply by using a different term. "Core" has become loaded ever since WotC started putting that word on its book with 3e. I never heard anyone say any book was "core" until 3e. Maybe something such as "primary" would work.
Fiffergrund wrote:
I still like "Foundation" as it works with the Castle theme.
Julian Grimm wrote:
Personally, I think if you slap supplement or sourcebook on the cover it works better. The term supplement does not have the same 'need this' ring that core does.

I wanted to address these three points at once.

First, Core may be loaded, but it's the only term that means something to most RPG purchasers. If they have to take time to figure out which books are necessary/should be purchased, you're going to lose customers. Using words like foundation may provide an interesting theme, but they're poor for communication purposes. I'm also not a fan of primary, as secondary sounds inferior.

Second, if you stress the optional aspect too much, people aren't going to buy it. Castles & Crusades doesn't have an audience like D&D with people constantly looking for new material. If people aren't buying Of Gods and Monsters in the same quantities as Monsters & Treasures, it won't be stocked as well, and it won't sell as well. It's either has to be a top-tier book that everyone should own, or it will be a second-tier book, that a few people might buy.

If Troll Lord Games wants to develop these four books as The Fourth Crusade, I don't see why they shouldn't be branded as Core. If they're not, I think this whole marketing blitz will be a waste.

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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by gideon_thorne »

*chuckles* Well, its a matter of perspective. Folks wanting to point out the odd typo, which many do, at length, and with exhaustive detail, is quite a bit different than the histrionic absurdity TLG got from folks, who, shall we say, are a bit more obsessively focused in their edition preferences than most, when we first put C&C out.
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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Well, its a matter of perspective. Folks wanting to point out the odd typo, which many do, at length, and with exhaustive detail, is quite a bit different than the histrionic absurdity TLG got from folks, who, shall we say, are a bit more obsessively focused in their edition preferences than most, when we first put C&C out.

I will admit that there are times that I shudder when I see some things. But at the end of the day, I don't know too much, particularly in the way of gaming books, that come out perfect anymore. Is it something for which we should strive? Absolutely. And I'm sure that the Trolls are more than willing to make changes when problems are brought to their attention. Maybe one of these days, they'll be big enough to have a dedicated editorial and proofreading staff. While it can be annoying from time to time, the occasional typo/gramatical/spelling error doesn't ultimately detract from the message. I'll take the occasional typo if the overall product is a strong one. But to kick off the criticism on the boards, and I were the author of the work, I'd be somewhat offended. For crying out loud, we're all human. If there's a mistake, point it out to the author/publisher and move on. But don't keep cutting down somebody's hard work on the boards just because it isn't grammatically perfect.

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Post by Sir Ironside »

I certainly don't mind all four books being called the core. It appears, from that that has been said, that every book is pretty useful for the gaming of C&C.

I don't know what kind of middle ground you could find. Maybe a disclaimer in Of Gods and Monsters and the CK Guide, That although not needed to run C&C there is a wealth of information in both games that highly advances the pleasure of your game play.

Or, something similar.

2 cents and all that.
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Re: More OG&M Suggestions

Post by gideon_thorne »

Ya. Its funny, even having a major editorial staff doesn't always help. I'll take a very well known and popular book and use that as an example. This would be Book 7 of the Harry Potter series. I got it on the midnight release when it came out, and read through it over the course of the night. Thing is, its clear it was rushed to publication, at least in the states, cause there were more than a few glaring mistakes. Enough that even a laid back fellow like me noticed.

The point being, even the big guys make mistakes.

Sure, it happens, fortunately TLG's got some helpful folks who have been good about sending info along so we can fix it.

And even a relatively polite start to a topic as this one was is a lot easier to swallow than "OMGWTF We're all gonna die because there is a typo, and TLG sucks!" posts (to paraphrase) that I've seen.

If anything, one's sense of humor in this industry is certainly put to the test.
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Sir Ironside wrote:
I certainly don't mind all four books being called the core. It appears, from that that has been said, that every book is pretty useful for the gaming of C&C.

I don't know what kind of middle ground you could find. Maybe a disclaimer in Of Gods and Monsters and the CK Guide, That although not needed to run C&C there is a wealth of information in both games that highly advances the pleasure of your game play.

Or, something similar.

2 cents and all that.

As far as I'm concerned, if the Trolls want to call the 4 books core, that's their right to do so. I'm sure they have method to their madness. It's not like they're putting out endless tomes of splat. It's 4 books. Every incarnation of D&D I've bought, I've gotten the PHB, MM and DMG. I've only bought a couple of the deities books, just because they were there and I was looking for some ideas for different directions to take characters. When the CKG comes out, I'll buy it. I've already bought the new editions of the PHB and OG&M. I have no problem with OG&M being considered "Core". It'll give me plenty of RP fodder and, ultimately, that's what I'm looking for in a game product.

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Post by AslanC »

Sing along with me now!

THIS IS THE THREAD THAT NEVER ENDS!

YES IT GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS!

LALALALALALALA!

Okay I kid of course, just tension breaker, needed to be done
Typos are part and parcel of the publishing game. What's worse is movie scripts. I can't tell you how many 3rd and 4th revision scripts I have seen that have "teh" in them instead of "the".

Then there's the misspellings... whoooo boy!
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

AslanC wrote:
Sing along with me now!

THIS IS THE THREAD THAT NEVER ENDS!

YES IT GOES ON AND ON MY FRIENDS!

LALALALALALALA!

Okay I kid of course, just tension breaker, needed to be done
Typos are part and parcel of the publishing game. What's worse is movie scripts. I can't tell you how many 3rd and 4th revision scripts I have seen that have "teh" in them instead of "the".

Then there's the misspellings... whoooo boy!

At least you know the correct usage of there/their/they're. Always look on the bright side of life.

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Post by AslanC »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
At least you know the correct usage of there/their/they're. Always look on the bright side of life.

Did I git dat rite?

Wooohooooo!

Musta killeded a buncha brian cels on dat won!
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Post by Breakdaddy »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
At least you know the correct usage of there/their/they're. Always look on the bright side of life.

Yeah those mispelings, there a real b*tch.
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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

AslanC wrote:
Did I git dat rite?

Wooohooooo!

Musta killeded a buncha brian cels on dat won!

Right! This is far too silly! This sketch has been going on for 9 pages and I don't have one funny line.

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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Breakdaddy wrote:
Yeah those mispelings, there a real b*tch.

Don't make me send Tullis after you.

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