Gods and worship

Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:48 am

All the discussion of oGaM , still waiting on mine ordered on thur.

Should deities abilities be limited by the belief of an area?

Birthright had temple levels for clerics to cast spells..

I am pondering a divine scoreboard so to speak that says which deity can do what in which parts of the world.

This should give the campaign a depth as clerics and gods struggle for real power.

Worship is not belief, i can belive in the orc god cause i saw him empower the orcs.

Thoughts?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:35 am

Gary Gygax, in the days when Greyhawk articles penned by his hand were still appearing in Dragon Magazine, wrote a little ditty about this very thing... in it, it was stated that the number of worshippers increased the power of a deity, so the fewer, the less powerful, overall the deity itself was, but the inverse was true for the few followers; likewise, if a deity has numerous worshipers, each will be relatively weak, as the power given is also spread amongst them all.

I have also had the opportunity and graciousness to have read (and convert some of) Lejendary Pantheons and a similar, but not exact, method was present.

So... yes, a deity could change, though those simply known under a different name would not, based on where one happens to be... on a world where the god does not exist, for example, it may be possible that no granted powers function.
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:07 am

The mentioned article, in Dragon? if so which issues?

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:51 am

It has been quite some time, but I believe it is an article called "Deities and their Faithful" in issue 97. It may have also been part of a series, between #67 - 71 called "The Deities & Demigods of the World of Greyhawk." However, I seem to recall it being some type of sage column or some such... I don't remember off-hand which one, specifically, since I read it only once.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:39 pm

I have played around with this a lot over the years myself. In the 1E days, and I believe this is in the GH boxed set booklets, gods were only as powerful as the worshippers they had. Plus they could only grant spells based on how powerful they were.

Exact numbers were never given, so my circle of gamers and I worked up some numbers. Part of becoming a demi god was not only sponsorship, but getting 10,000 people to worship you. To become a Lesser God you needed 100,000 worshippers, and to be a greater god you needed 1,000,000.

This was based on what we thought the total population of GH was at the time, so in worlds with greater populations we would require more, since in reality it was concerned with the percentage of the population that worshipped you, not the hard numbers. So it is basically a popularity contest, and a vote for a god is cast whenever a person starts to pray to them.

The Wilderlands setting kind of messed with this a bit because in that setting you could find a pool of water that has its own god, so I explained this away as a god who lost the popularity contest on this world, but was still in the race on other worlds, so his "presence" in the Wilderlands still kept its power, but in a very limited scope. IE only around this location, such as a pool, the ruins of his last temple, etc...

One of the Best of Dragons, the silver colored one I believe, also has an article on Saint hood, a great article we referenced heavily for our ideas on how to become a god, etc...
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:42 pm

Didn't 2nd Edition do something similar? If I recall correctly, the amount of influence a god had determined what "level" of god he or she was (demi-, lesser, intermediate, or greater) and the level of spells that the god could dispose were limited by the god's power.

I thought this was an interesting way to adjudicate it. *shrug*
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:05 pm

Lord Dynel wrote:
Didn't 2nd Edition do something similar? If I recall correctly, the amount of influence a god had determined what "level" of god he or she was (demi-, lesser, intermediate, or greater) and the level of spells that the god could dispose were limited by the god's power.

I thought this was an interesting way to adjudicate it. *shrug*

I think it only worked that way in 1E. Now the ranking you mention was in 2E, but I believe they took away the limitations on spells that could be granted. Or maybe I just decided to ignore it?

Anyways, in 1E I remember demi gods could only grant 5th level and lower spells, lesser gods could grant 6th level and lower, and only greater gods could grant the 7th level spells.

So if it was done in 2E it would have been similarly scaled.
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:03 pm

I love the idea of scaling the spells they give their clerics.

Is there a list for this idea somewhere? Where is it in 1e? DDG?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:57 pm

Treebore wrote:
I think it only worked that way in 1E. Now the ranking you mention was in 2E, but I believe they took away the limitations on spells that could be granted. Or maybe I just decided to ignore it?

Anyways, in 1E I remember demi gods could only grant 5th level and lower spells, lesser gods could grant 6th level and lower, and only greater gods could grant the 7th level spells.

So if it was done in 2E it would have been similarly scaled.

Since I finally (re)aquired a copy of the 2nd Edition Legends & Lore at GenCon, I figure I may as well put it to some use.

2e Legends & Lore, page 8, wrote:
A greater god can grant any power or spell of any level to his or her priests. It is this ability that deities give priests and paladins their magical powers

Same goes for Intermediate gods.

2e Legends & Lore, page 9, wrote:
Lesser gods can grant thier worshippers any power that does not exceed theri own powers, or spell of up to 6th level.

Demigods grant spells of up to 5th level, according to page 10.

At least that's the way I'm interpreting it.

Now, this goes on the old basis of clerics having 7th level and lower spells...and theri being "Intermediate gods." I'd say:

Greater Gods grant up to and including 9th level spells.

Lesser Gods grant up to and including 8th level spells.

Demigods grant up to and including 7th level spells.

Or you could go 9th, 7th, and 5th, respectively.

I'd say be careful, though, or everyone will be worshipping greater gods just so they make sure they get access to the high level spells...and that's a crappy reason to worship a god, IMHO.
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:58 pm

Yes the gods power by level is in the begining of the DDG.

Its also in Gawd and DemiGawds for Hackmaster.

The Hack version expanded it a bit.

AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:00 pm

Thanks for the info
I think I would use the 9th, 7th and 5th... if only there was a fourth rank so I could have 3rd level spells only for minor religions.

Greater

Lesser

(Need a name for something here)

Demi-God

?
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:03 pm

AslanC wrote:
Thanks for the info
I think I would use the 9th, 7th and 5th... if only there was a fourth rank so I could have 3rd level spells only for minor religions.

Greater

Lesser

(Need a name for something here)

Demi-God

?

Well, you could reinstate the Intermediate God level, but that goes between Greater and lesser.
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:06 pm

Sure but Intermediate doesn't have the UMPH! of Greater! Lesser! Demi-God!

It's an accounting term at best
I am looking for something that has wow to it!
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:40 pm

AslanC wrote:
Sure but Intermediate doesn't have the UMPH! of Greater! Lesser! Demi-God!

It's an accounting term at best
I am looking for something that has wow to it!

Hmm. I don't know what to tell ya, honestly. I know Greyhawk used to dabble with the Quasi-Deity, but that was below demigod, iirc, and I don't know if they even bestowed spells to followers. I can't remember.
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:43 pm

What about is it goes

Greater -> Lesser -> Demi-God -> Saints

That way G gives lvl 9, L gives lvl 7, D gives lvl 5 and S gives only up to level 3?
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:26 am

1E you could get 2nd level spells worshiping a rock. faith was the only factor.

Hackmaster used Intermediary gods , so thats the standard i adopted.

Greater

Intermediary (Major)

Lesser

Demigod

I liken it to Birthrights Blood levels

Great

Major

Minor

tainted

ah ha... theres a name for ya Major !

AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:34 pm

Major is too military for me
No I am going with

Greater Gods

Lesser Gods

Demi-Gods

Saints

And maybe some rock worship
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:29 pm

Sounds good, sir. Post some more info when/if you get something worked up!
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Ace of Swords · Post by **Ace of Swords** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:44 pm

I got "of Gods and Monsters" yesterday and read through it alot.

I love the nonhuman patheons.

The Earth patheons are ok

Some rules/guide lines on creating /adapting exsisting patheons would have been wonderful.

The gods seem to all lay out simply enough, but some info on how they did it would be nice.

I have to confess my interest in the deities stems from using a modified Birthright in my world.

The problems i am having are how wrong BR went about some things.

Any way the gods bit i am working on later today. when i have something banged out i will post it.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:28 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
Some rules/guide lines on creating /adapting exsisting patheons would have been wonderful.

The gods seem to all lay out simply enough, but some info on how they did it would be nice.

I like the book, don't get me wrong, but I agree with you, Ace. I would have liked some bullet points on pantheon creation. Can I make a pantheon myself now? Sure. But advice from the experts would be a nice touch, too, IMHO.
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Christina Stiles · Post by **Christina Stiles** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:44 am

Lord Dynel wrote:
I like the book, don't get me wrong, but I agree with you, Ace. I would have liked some bullet points on pantheon creation. Can I make a pantheon myself now? Sure. But advice from the experts would be a nice touch, too, IMHO.

I sent an email to Jim to see if he wanted to tackle that. If not, I intend to work on something for Crusader.

Christina
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:53 am

Christina Stiles wrote:
I sent an email to Jim to see if he wanted to tackle that. If not, I intend to work on something for Crusader.

Christina

Sounds good, Christina!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:01 am

Here's a snippet....

Demigod / Legendary Hero

Least Deity

Minor Deity

Lesser Deity

Major Deity

Great Deity

Greater Deity

Greatest Deity

Supreme Entity
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