Does C&C break down at high level play?

[Bowbe]

What are we calling higher levels here?

8? 18?

I'll key you in a little bit on where I'm at design-wise with adventures and such:

I am running stuff that is on par level wise with the guys in my group. That happens to be in the 6-9 range. Upcoming stuff from me should fill that range pretty well and indicates challenges and NPCs that are much higher level than that.

The thing with "High Level" play is that it stops being about dungeon crawls because the "dungeon" is fairly irrelevant once characters start gaining the ability to walk on walls, stay invisible at will, teleport and plane travel.

Adventures morph at this time and become more about relationships between characters and powerful enemies/allies/alliances, and exotic unbelieveable locales.

Sure you can cheese out (as I have done and so has every other game designer on the planet) and make magical barriers against said powerful magic, but that really only goes so far before the players start to smell the stink of muenster or Vieux Boulogne.

Admittedly I have also been holding out for (and working on) the CKG and it's variety of high level coolness, but refused to design a "High level" component to the HH campaign setting without the actual codified rules for high level play available to all.

But judging by what I have helped work on, seen worked on, and playtested of high level material I can say this: High level C&C plays better, faster, and more purely than 3.x edition (Yeah i'm gonna go ahead and include pathfinder in that because although I respect what they are doing with pathfinder... it still suffers from the same issues that all 3x has with high level play. I.E. Too many prestige classes, books, feats, skills, and other confusing amounts of crap that slow down the game).

Anyhow, ask me more. When I have time or if I have the ability I can answer.

C.

[Sir Ironside]

Bowbe wrote:
Anyhow, ask me more. When I have time or if I have the ability I can answer.

But how will we know when to ask?
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[Treebore]

Yeah, when the game reaches "high level", which starts at 9th level for me, the dynamics of everything change.

What? Well at 9th level you start getting to big "game breakers", teleport and Raise Dead. At 10th level the fighter gets 2 attacks per level. Plus everyone is just darn good at doing a lot of "simple" stuff.

So the scale of everything changes. Opponents are likely within a couple of levels of the PC's, and the main bad people are probably of higher level. If your looking at a climactic battle the main bad guy is probably 4 or more levels higher than the party. So for a 9th level group your looking at the BBEG (big bad evil guy) possibly being 13th level, maybe higher.

If they are a spell caster, or several spell casters, that is a lot of spells and magic items for a CK to read through and be aware of, and to come up with offensive strategies, and to also look at your PC's to see how they can deal with the threats the opponents can throw at them.

Before 9th level you already do this, but to a much lesser extent. Primarily at lower levels its about HD versus level. You only have a handful of spells to keep track of because there are the habitual favorites: Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Web, Hold Person, Command, Sleep, Magic Missile, Sound Burst, and maybe dimension Door, Prayer, Bless, and a few others.

Now you are going to deal with a wider and ever expanding list of spells, and how to counter them. Magic item stockpiles are also going to grow unless you have little or no magical items in your games.

A lot of people have issues with Raise Dead as well, plus the Cleric will soon be able to fully heal someone from -9 all the way back up to essential full strength.

These all have an impact on strategies, and what a group can deal with, which is often a LOT more than you would think.

So the game breaks down when the CK becomes unable to deal with all of these possibilities. The CK will get blind sided a lot if they are new to high level, and still get blindsided every so often even once they are seasoned high level CK's.

CK's will get frustrated with how their carefully crafted, well balanced, tough encounter is easily overcome because they forgot to consider the possibility of Cloud Kill, or Blade Barrier, or the Druids Insect Plague kills that Ancient Dragon immediately.

So the game can "break down", but only if the CK gets caught off guard. Which I do not consider to be a problem with the rules, but with the CK's experience, foresight, and planning.

So to keep the game going the CK is going to HAVE to become very familiar with all spells and all magic items in play. So if its in a PC's Wizard/Illusionists spell book, or an item in possession of the PC's, the CK BETTER know what those spells and items can do.

You better also be aware of ALL the spells a Druid or Cleric can cast at their level, or from scrolls, etc...

Plus you not only need to know what these spells can do by the book, but how they can be used and effect the battle field. So spend some time thinking about how you could use those spells to mess up your scenario, and decide if the NPC's would be smart enough to have some counter tactics or spells in play.

A CK really has to be on their toes and be very knowledgeable to keep a high level game from getting out of control, which is often referred to as "breaking down".

So when you run high level games, your going to learn a lot, or really hate high level games.

Which is why its good to play a game with just the basics. You have a game system with hundreds of spells, thousands of items, and many other "powers/quirks/feats/talents/etc... the harder and harder, and finally impossible it becomes to successfully run a high level game. It will "break", it will just be a question of when.

So its fine to have a lot of low level magic around, but when you get to high levels you are going to want to be very careful of what you let fall into the PC's hands. So you will want to pay attention to how many items they can wear/use in a given round.

You do not want them to have a bandaleer (sp?) of wands to switch through round after round, nor do you want them to have various rods and staves per PC.

Try and keep them at one to 3 wands, 1 or 2 rods, and only 1 or 2 staves each. You will soon be grateful that they can only use one on any given round.

Plus you will eventually have to implement things that destroy those items, or steal them, just to change things up and keep things fresh for the players and manageable for you, the CK.

So when they fail saves versus fireballs, lightning bolts, etc... have their items make those saves, destroy those suckers. Magic items can always be replaced, and the player is challenged in dealing with the "weakness" their PC has again.

So its going ot be very challenging for the CK at higher levels, but when you successfully step up and keep the game going, and keep it challenging, and freshen it up every so often, you will feel very good about yourself.
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[CharlieRock]

redbeard wrote:
What I am curious about specifically is what the game is like when some SIEGE checks are so vastly different and saving throws are so high.

How does it feel when a class ability check is +10 or more higher than a regular ability check?

What does it do when all saving throws range from +10 to +20?

In my experience (and only for one game that went to level 15 to 18) you were either going to make it (i.e. "roll 3 or higher") or you had a decent chance (i.e. "roll 11 or higher"). The suspense came when your character attempted spmething you weren't good at, or got hit with a spell targeting your non-primes.

And then there was those crazy multi-attack monsters that could tear you up in a toe-to-toe fight you had to figure a way to beat.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

[Lord Dynel]

Great assessments by these last few posters.

Treebore pretty much said it, in his very first sentence. The game doesn't break down more than it changes. The scope of the game changes. The players are capable of many more things. Things up to a certain point (I'd agree - 9th level and on) weren't possible...or easily as possible.

And the game is not unlike high level games of AD&D, I would suppose (my C&C game isn't qujite at "high levels" yet, but I'm seeing a few patters). C&C employs a SIEGE engine, and has a few differences, but it looks to be shaping up like a few high level AD&D games I ran - players power levels change quickly over a few levels and the CK needs to be ready for that change.
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[serleran]

As I said before -- the scope of the game changes. Whether that is good or bad depends on the players. Personally, I am disappointed the fighter did not get his army horde in the new PHB, but the barbarian did. I hope it will be in the CKG, and if not, then I'll just have to re-introduce my system for it.
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[gideon_thorne]

serleran wrote:
As I said before -- the scope of the game changes. Whether that is good or bad depends on the players. Personally, I am disappointed the fighter did not get his army horde in the new PHB, but the barbarian did. I hope it will be in the CKG, and if not, then I'll just have to re-introduce my system for it.

Dude, ya always get that mixed up. Its 'army of hoorrrrs, 'tousands and tousands of hooors'
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Peter Bradley

[jaguar451]

I'm looking forward to Adjuncts in the CKG, and then an E6/8 for C&C....