Digest Sized C&C Character Sheet from Pete Bradley

aztecman · Post by **aztecman** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:47 pm

Howdy all -

Way back in the day (during the C&C collector's box release) - I recall Pete Bradley (or someone else) putting out a digest sized character record sheet that matched the size of the glorious white box.

Would anyone still happen to have that sheet they could forward to me? I am going to be running some classic C&C with a few of my friends this weekend and I could really use the smaller sized format.

I'd ask Pete, but I know he's busy doing all the illustration for the CKG now ^_^

Thanks!

Brian

Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:17 pm

OOH OOH! I WANT ONE TOO!

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:29 pm

If Peter has one, it should be made available on the C&C Downloads section of the site as I am sure many people would want it... I might have it, but have to dig through all the stuff I have in electronic format.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:01 pm

I still have it. And yes, tis faster to ask me directly. ^_~`
http://www.ravenchilde.com/ccchasheet.pdf
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aztecman · Post by **aztecman** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:05 pm

SWEEEEEET!!!!!

Thanks Pete.

Aztec

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:08 pm

GLORY! How come this was never released in the box sets? Thanks for asking Aztecman, or else Pete Bradley would be hoarding this all to himself.
~O
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:33 pm

Hmm... this has the mysterious "TN" as well (see here). Perhaps Peter can shed some light on how he envisioned the "TN" section being used.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:23 pm

The mysterious TN raises is devilish head again. Perhaps this is symbology. Perhaps this is all in an attempt to sell more copies of Dan Brown's book!!!

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:27 pm

TN = Troll Number

TN = Total Newb

TN = Truly Niggling

TN = Taste Nothing

TN = Test Nicotine

Lots of options fer shure.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:32 pm

Total Newb... HA!
~O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:09 pm

Omote wrote:
The mysterious TN raises is devilish head again. Perhaps this is symbology. Perhaps this is all in an attempt to sell more copies of Dan Brown's book!!!

~O

Its not mysterious. Target Number (12/18) was the term TLG was using when I first put together the character sheet some 5 years ago.
Just cause these dudes like to change all the terms around doesn't mean I update my sheets.

Omote wrote:
GLORY! How come this was never released in the box sets? Thanks for asking Aztecman, or else Pete Bradley would be hoarding this all to himself.
~O

It was on the site for a fair while under downloads when the white box first came out.

Frost wrote:
Hmm... this has the mysterious "TN" as well (see here). Perhaps Peter can shed some light on how he envisioned the "TN" section being used.

I don't know about anyone else, but us mathematically inept people like to pre-calculate things. I use that space to write in the base number (including modifiers) I need to roll over for each score.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:44 pm

dumb question...

page 1 looks the way i'd expect it to, page two is like page one cut in half and reversed.... all the same suff in opposite order?

is that for some printing magic?

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:51 pm

Print out that character sheet, and then fold in half along the 8'5" side.

~O
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:51 pm

Relaxo wrote:
dumb question...

page 1 looks the way i'd expect it to, page two is like page one cut in half and reversed.... all the same suff in opposite order?

is that for some printing magic?

Yes.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:34 am

ok .... (printing and folding) ...

um... no?

{edit}

OK when i do it as TWO 8.5 x 11 pages, it looks like they'd line up ok folded horizontally across the shorter... um, yeah, ok, now i get it.

[feel dumb]

love these!

[/feel dumb]

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:38 am

Relaxo wrote:
ok .... (printing and folding) ...

um... no?

is it supposed to be 2 8.5x 11 pages front and back? my acrobat is defaulitng to putting them both on one side of an 8x11 which may be the issue.

Print it back to back, cut in half, for a half sheet.
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AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:37 am

serleran wrote:
TN = Truly Niggling

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:17 am

Except niggling means "annoyingly persistent or overly obsessed with details." So, changing its connotation, as you did, reveals something more of the change, then the truth.
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AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:20 am

serleran wrote:
Except niggling means "annoyingly persistent or overly obsessed with details." So, changing its connotation, as you did, reveals something more of the change, then the truth.

1. Duh

2. I think you mean THAN the truth.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:40 am

I might have, yeah. Been a long day.

Maybe I need to eat more fried watermelon, being the racist (gnomes are clearly superior!) I am.
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Relaxo · Post by **Relaxo** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Yeah, that's what I meant, Pete... long day.

Cool.

anywho.. the character sheet is great and small. (pun intended)

Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:28 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Its not mysterious. Target Number (12/18) was the term TLG was using when I first put together the character sheet some 5 years ago.
Just cause these dudes like to change all the terms around doesn't mean I update my sheets.

It was on the site for a fair while under downloads when the white box first came out.

I don't know about anyone else, but us mathematically inept people like to pre-calculate things. I use that space to write in the base number (including modifiers) I need to roll over for each score.

Ok, bear with me. So, in play, the CK asks a player, "What's your challenge base/target number?" and the player in turn looks at his sheet and says "12" or "18" or what ever it is after modifiers, and then the CK uses that in his Challenge Class calculations, correct?

Hmm. If that is the case, this is pushing me more towards the popular "drop the 12/18 business and just give primes a +6" house rule. Seems like less work for the CK. The CK just sets the Challenge Class and then lets the player do the math. i.e., the players rolls a d20, adds his +6 or what-have-you, and tells the CK the total.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:35 am

Frost wrote:
Ok, bear with me. So, in play, the CK asks a player, "What's your challenge base/target number?" and the player in turn looks at his sheet and says "12" or "18" or what ever it is after modifiers, and then the CK uses that in his Challenge Class calculations, correct?

Hmm. If that is the case, this is pushing me more towards the popular "drop the 12/18 business and just give primes a +6" house rule. Seems like less work for the CK. The CK just sets the Challenge Class and then lets the player do the math. i.e., the players rolls a d20, adds his +6 or what-have-you, and tells the CK the total.

Sure. But I just tend to say "Roll me a check." And I have a number in my head, and the player tells me what number they rolled. Then I describe the result.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:37 am

Yes, save yourself some time and as CK just ask the players to tell you home much they beat the check by. Since the players already know if the Challange Base (or Target Number, if you will) is prime or not, just have them roll a d20, add level, add ability modifier, and/or any other modifiers. As CK you have the Challange Level already in your head, so when the player tells you how much they beat the roll by, as CK you immediately know if they passed the check or not.

Easy peasey.

~O
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:41 pm

Omote wrote:
Yes, save yourself some time and as CK just ask the players to tell you home much they beat the check by. Since the players already know if the Challange Base (or Target Number, if you will) is prime or not, just have them roll a d20, add level, add ability modifier, and/or any other modifiers. As CK you have the Challange Level already in your head, so when the player tells you how much they beat the roll by, as CK you immediately know if they passed the check or not.

Easy peasey.

~O

I see, Omote. So if the CL is 5 and they know they beat it by 5 or more, then you know they passed it. Got it.

Or, in other words, the players rolls a d20, subtracts his CB/TN from the roll, and tells that result to the CK. e.g., my CB/TN total is 12. I roll a 18. That means I overcame a Challenge Level of 6 or less. So, in that method, you're focusing more on the Challenge Level than the total Challenge Class. In other words, the Challenge Level is the hard number you're using as a basis since the Challenge Class will vary from PC to PC.

Edit: So, basically, as a CK, you simply set the CL in your head and go from there. There really isn't a need to worry about the total Challenge Class at that point.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:07 pm

Frost wrote:
I see, Omote. So if the CL is 5 and they know they beat it by 5 or more, then you know they passed it. Got it.

Or, in other words, the players rolls a d20, subtracts his CB/TN from the roll, and tells that result to the CK. e.g., my CB/TN total is 12. I roll a 18. That means I overcame a Challenge Level of 6 or less. So, in that method, you're focusing more on the Challenge Level than the total Challenge Class. In other words, the Challenge Level is the hard number you're using as a basis since the Challenge Class will vary from PC to PC.

Edit: So, basically, as a CK, you simply set the CL in your head and go from there. There really isn't a need to worry about the total Challenge Class at that point.

Yes, 2 different approaches to get to the same SIEGE check - one lets the players do the math, one the CK does -

If they're a player, they have the TN of 12 or 18 for prime or non-prime (or 10/15 by the way some people do it - common house rule for some), you give them the CL of the check - which could be a negative if it's real simple, or increasingly higher - they add the TN and CL like you said and they know what number they're rolling against for that attribute. They roll d20, add attribute mod, racial or other mods for the type of check it is, add levels if it's a prime or class ability etc., and then they compare it to the CL/TN number.

If you as CK keep it - ask them to roll and add the mods - I tell them "for this check you add levels" individually or "don't add levels" etc., then I just have in my head the 2 target numbers for prime and non-prime. I go with this method personally.

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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:31 pm

seskis281 wrote:
If you as CK keep it - ask them to roll and add the mods - I tell them "for this check you add levels" individually or "don't add levels" etc., then I just have in my head the 2 target numbers for prime and non-prime. I go with this method personally.

Right, that is how I've done it in the past. The thing is I don't care for having the two numbers in my head. Ha, I know, I'm simple.
So, with the Omote method, the CK just has one number in is his head (the CL). With the +6 method, the CK just has one number in his head too (the total Challenge Class).

I'm pondering which method to employ in the future. Part of me likes the Omote method because it is more by the book, but then it involves the players subtracting from the d20 result instead of adding and I like the concept of adding all the time. On the other hand, the +6 method is simpler, and in effect the same process.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Perhaps I'm missunderstanding the subtration that you mention. Why would there be any subtraction in a siege check... unless the check is very, very easy?

A standard siege check is CB (12/18) plus CL = CC.

The player knows whether the CB is 12 or 18 (primary vs secondary attribute).

As CK, you will know what the challange level is in your head. Let's say they need to jump a wide chasm. As CK you say the CL is 5.

The player already knows the CB (let's say for the sake of argument that the Castle Keeper makes jumping the chasm a strength check. The character has strength as a prime (CB=12). The player knows this.

So let the player roll the dice and tell him to add his STR MOD and his LEVEL and another other modifiers that could add into this roll.

As the CK, you already know that the CL is 5.

The player rolls the dice, and rolls a 19 with all of his modifier. The player knows since strength is prime that he needs to beat a 12. The player says he rolled a 19 and beat his strength seige roll by 7.

The player says he beat the roll by 7.

The CK knowing the CL was 5 immediately knows the check is successful and described the successful jump across the chasm.

~O
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Frost · Post by **Frost** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Right, yep, Omote, I understand you 100% and you understand me. I'm just muddying the waters of a very system game system.
Here is where I see the subtraction coming in...

The player rolls a 19, subtracts his CB of 12, and gets the result 7. That is how he figures how the maximum CL he has beaten.

The reason I'm putting so much thought into this is that I want to teach some new players the system and I find that the PC record sheet is a great tool for teaching. E.g., you walk the player through the various areas to show them what each number, etc. means or how it is used during play.

What I'm learning is there are many different ways there are to handle a SIEGE check, game-play-wise.

I find it much easier for the CK to be able to say (or think) "you need to beat a CL 5," rather than, "PCs with a prime attribute need to beat a CC 17, but those without need to beat a CC 23."

Dropping the 12/18 business and simply giving the giving +6 to die rolls based on a prime works in a similar fashion. The CK says/thinks, "You need to bet a CC 23" and lets the players do the math (i.e., they add +6 to their roll or they don't).
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:45 pm

This is why I pre-calculate things on my character sheet. Throw a bunch of numbers at me, especially in a formula, and my brain goes all bigglety and starts putting said numbers out of order. Dyscalculia, or as I call it, numbers dyslexia, can be a bitch.
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Digest Sized C&C Character Sheet from Pete Bradley

Digest Sized C&C Character Sheet from Pete Bradley

Re: Digest Sized C&C Character Sheet from Pete Bradley