Troll Lord Games

The new Gods and Monsters book has me confused. Their spells and gods sound a tad more ... halfing to me. And halfings (especially the art) look waaaay too serious.

And for the longest time before that, I had no idea those big nosed, hair guys were gnomes. I thought they were goblinish. or something.

Just my opinion, nothing more.

It's short folk "EXTREME MAKEOVER"...airing nightly on C&C-TV.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

When creating C&C, gnomes were one of the highly debated bits. Some wanted the traditional gnomes while others wanted more fairytale (think old norse) gnomes. What you find in the phb is a middle ground (not the mini-man tinker from D&D but not the earth spirit from legend either).

In that sense, they are more like halflings (living in small warrens, concerned with nature, simple lives, etc.) but that was the idea. So far as I'm aware, halflings haven't changed much (still hobbit clones with their lazy comfort driven lives being the big difference from gnomes). So I'm not sure why they'd be overly serious in Gods & Monsters but I don't own that one yet.
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Baron Greymoor
Troll Lord Games
Castles & Crusades Society

Hahah This is Peter's ball game. He's been slowly morphing those monsters for years. I've been fighting it, but I guess he's worn me down. I didn't even notice the gnomes this time. haha

I need some JOLT cola or something.

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

As a guy who plays C&C gnomes 75% of the time, I have to admit that I wasn't initially fond of the furry goblin look. However, it's grown on me. I guess I can see them either way now. Bradley's gnomes are definitely NOT just skinny dwarves or bearded halflings.

I still have to say, though, that my favorite gnome pic so far is the lithe little sucker in one of Deogolf's recent Holloway posts.
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Jason Braun
Art Monkey for Hire
Three-Headed Troll Art Wurks

jaybird216 wrote:
I still have to say, though, that my favorite gnome pic so far is the lithe little sucker in one of Deogolf's recent Holloway posts.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! The illustration can be seen in the Artist's Alley section.
http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Towards the bottom of the page...
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

I just got a new "Lawn Ewok" for my front yard.

The silly cretans in my neighborhood do not realize it is a gnome.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

I just got a new "Lawn Ewok" for my front yard.

The silly cretans in my neighborhood do not realize it is a gnome.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Okay to further prove my point now that I've got my book in front of me ...

The gnomes, not the Halflings, have Beer and Ale spells, along with "Really Good Cookie." Never mind the Avocados and turning swords into bread!

The Halfings on the other hand, not one picture of them has a smile and not one spell mentions or influences a hearth! And there's no god for cooking!

Heresy! I tell you Heresy!!!

Though I admit the look and feel of the halfings really focuses on the "plucky and always underestimated" feel and makes me tempted to do an all Halfing game. LOL!

My favorite gnome pic is the dressed rat and the gnomes.

I'm don't know. I guess I'm not opposed to teh new rendering of these fellas. If my players like the way they are perceived in C&C, that's good. If not, it's back to the classic rendition.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I LOVE ol' Pete's artwork. I often tout his work to potential C&C purchasers. That said, I was never a big fan of the Gnome renderings. It's not about the art, as much as it is their appearance. Definately better than the stereotypical Garden Gnome, but not as preferable as some gnome renderings from other games of old. Not a slam, I assure you. Well, maybe that Yoda-looking gnome deity in Of Gods and Monsters. You know the one. It's all in good fun. The gnome section of OGAM may have been the only not to feature the trademark PB butt-shot. Appealing though it may be with the Elves, I definately won't complain about the lack of seductive Gnomes in that tome.

Are you guys talking about the thing with the pointy ears and fuzzy beard that's in the picture with the half-orc and the barmaid in the PHB and other places like in Monsters & Treasure where they're chiseling away on golems? I always thought those were kobolds for some reason! Never realized those were supposed to be gnomes.

It's probably the only art from him that I don't like, to be honest; not because it's not good, but because it's not what I picture as a gnome. No biggie though.

DaveyB wrote:
Are you guys talking about the thing with the pointy ears and fuzzy beard that's in the picture with the half-orc and the barmaid in the PHB and other places like in Monsters & Treasure where they're chiseling away on golems? I always thought those were kobolds for some reason! Never realized those were supposed to be gnomes.

It's probably the only art from him that I don't like, to be honest; not because it's not good, but because it's not what I picture as a gnome. No biggie though.

Those are, indeed, gnomes. And the more I think about it, the more I don't like them either. But you hit the nail on the head, Davey. The rendering (as I said before) is good, the actual artwork rather fine. But thinking about gnomes, I picture them like they have always been in my mind. When I think about the entry in the PHB, that is what I'm thinking about. But the more I come back to this thread, the more I thinki it over, the more I'm not liking them. Just personal taste, though, the art itself is good.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Stephen, I can't believe you didn't want to tell the "how the Gnomes got into the phb story". Seems like you shared that story with me at some con over the years. I doubt I could remember all of the details. Oh well. Suffice it to say, Peter "20 Dollar" Bradley is the man!

I understand that the depiction of any creature or race is subjective, and that there is a traditional look that has been established by the industry over the years. That creates an expectation in folks when they look at established representations of races/monsters/etc.

I for one actually love the look of the CnC Gnomes! First of all, the depictions of the various "races" has always bugged me a bit. Short stocky men with beards are dwarves. Short stocky men with no beards are hobbits/halflings. Shorter, slimmer men with beards are gnomes. slim men with no beards with pointy ears are elves. Etc. I am pretty jaded, I guess. So, this leads me to my point about Peter's depiction of Gnomes. It is decidedly fresh to me. I have always been irritated that gnomes were drawn to look way too close to dwarves, sort of their emaciated crack-head cousins. I think Peter's version really gives them an identity of their own, and combined with the supernatural tie-in with the fey world, I really, really dig this version above all the others, hands down.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

I second PIperdog. I think Peter's gnome depiction is great. If folks think they look goblinish, then use that in your campaign world. If orcs are corrupted elves, why can't goblins be corrupted gnomes? A vicious hatred between the two races can ensue, fun times for players.
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Sir Dachda McKinty,

Margrave and Knight of Portlandia
Castles & Crusades Society

Piperdog, I have to agree that there's nothing wrong with a fresh approach to the classic races. Whether or not it's the look for me is another matter. Either way, the art is fantastic, and my enjoyment of the game isn't hampered in the least.

I've mentioned it from time to time before, but the gnome, in my campaign setting, has much in common with the elemental earth being of folklore.

They are not the tinkers of Krynn or the hill burrowers of standard D&D.

These beings have incredible power over the elemental earth. From being able to shape the earth itself, to summoning earth elementals. Not a race one wants to mess with in my setting.
And yes, I know how most folks like the typical fantasy tropes. However, it should be born in mind that someone had to come up with the 'typical' trope in the first place.

One can stand still, or one can be innovative. Personally, I prefer the latter.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

It can be argued, whether successful or not, that that idea is not original, either, being wholly drawn from such luminaries as Paracelsus or even that huge furry rock dude in Labyrinth (though, the "Bradley gnome" is a miniaturized rendition, of a sort.) So, the "typical fantasy trope" is the earth-based gnome; Gary Gygax created a new one.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
It can be argued, whether successful or not, that that idea is not original, either, being wholly drawn from such luminaries as Paracelsus or even that huge furry rock dude in Labyrinth (though, the "Bradley gnome" is a miniaturized rendition, of a sort.) So, the "typical fantasy trope" is the earth-based gnome; Gary Gygax created a new one.

Did I use the word 'original' anywhere in my comments?

I just don't like doing what everyone else is doing.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

No, you said "innovative."
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

I don't mind the new look. The resemblance to goblins could be put to their actual kinship though goblins are the unseelie version of seelie gnomes. The garden variety with the red hat and kindly forest sprite-sort was from germanic mythology if I remember correctly.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Not really, no. They tend to be somewhat malevolent or ambivalent, preferring treasure and the like... sort of like Rumpelstiltskin. But, that might just be a focusing on a certain region of stories, rather than a broader one. There are certainly bogies and the like that are the garden type. That is the kind I don't really like, but they are fun to abuse in a game. As a player.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Likes my real life gnomes to be red hat travelocity types. Hates gaming gnomes of every stripe. Gnomes to me are as abarrent as most of the Oriental Adventures classes from late 1e. You know... twice as powerful as their occidental alternates for no good reason. The gnome race in about every FRPG is always twice the race of every other damned character race and I have for the life of me to figure out why.

Pete's half goblins are perfect for my tastes if for that if nothing else.

As for half-things, they annoy me about as much to be quite honest. I can't wait till FRPG's quit humping Tolkien's bones when it comes to furry feet, pan fried coneys, long lingering looks, longer walks and all that other mess. I guess I didn't get into fantasy via the Tolkien route like most people. I got there via Edgar Rice Burroughs, Robert Howard and Fritz Lieber.

Halflings in the long delayed HH Karbosk setting are A: Brave and good archers, B: Hang out in vast underground shopping malls. C: Have their own very powerful mafia organizations and are repected (and feared) on their own merits, rather than having to cling or cleave to any other racial perception involving safflour oil and sweet-bread. Not saying that suff isn't there, just saying it would be nice if we could all evolve a wee bit as gamers.

C.

Check out halflings in David Weber's Oath of Swords series. They are short, have small horns, and are the best sailors in the known world. They are also fiesty and NOT fuzzy footed.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Go0gleplex wrote:
Check out halflings in David Weber's Oath of Swords series. They are short, have small horns, and are the best sailors in the known world. They are also fiesty and NOT fuzzy footed.

Good series. The Hradani are also a splendid example of how I always saw a 'rage' like ability.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

C&C gnomes are the only gnomes I don't punt on sight.

Most other ones simply exist to annoy me.

DangerDwarf wrote:
C&C gnomes are the only gnomes I don't punt on sight.

Most other ones simply exist to annoy me.

Heh. C'mon DD, what do you have against conical hats?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Heh. C'mon DD, what do you have against conical hats?

I started wearing them because they rawk. I wasn't trying to start a fad. Damn little buggers are trying to steal my schtick.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Heh. C'mon DD, what do you have against conical hats?

My home campaign gnomes just terrify people. Earthquakes in small packages.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley