For Shame TLG!

[serleran]

I'd be happy to help with the "irrata document" if you wanted, Steve. I'm sure it wouldn't be too much to do, really...
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[jman5000]

OK,

Going to try and bang out a couple of different replies, thanks everyone (Even the detractors ) for the responses.

to treebore:

"Now if you bought it direct, from TLG, like I think you did, they should have made it clear that it needed the 4th printing to be fully utilized. They should have also cleaned it up."

I bought 2 copies. 1 print, and one from drivethu. this is because I didn't allow enough time to get it delivered to can-a'duh, and I'm doing a test run of the module today, so I have 2 copies of it. both sites have the same text regarding what is required to play

Sir Ironside:

"I think that putting something as little as (C&C 4e Players Hanbook compatible) "

yes, exactly. though, I can understand the "marketing" desire to NOT say that - because then it admits what it really is, the 4th printing IS a new edition. in everything but name.

Frost:

"I do feel that many C&C products are written with the presumption that one has access to other materials or, at the least, has had experience with other RPGs. That always irks me a bit, even though I have both of the aforementioned. "

The "A" series is really bad for this. I can totally understand and accept this level of support from an indy release module by a fan - or something from dragonsfoot, or something else. I hate hate hate hate err, hate it when these kinds of mistakes come from the publisher. makes me think I'm just playing in someone's homegame - houserules and all. See every single module written by steve or davis who gets falling damage wrong...

Steve:

I'm going to say this upfront to everybody. Because I really do think you are an honest and upfront man. Honestly, a rare breed! I support TLG because (and sometimes despite) you
"Jmann. Please be so kind as to give me a shout via PM with your paypal email so I can refund your money. "

nope. I bought it fair and square. I've been a right royal pain in the ass for you for years now with mailings to canada not getting through, etc etc etc... Keep the money, I will still be running this game today - so, even with my bitching, I am paying for a service rendered. I might not be happy about it, but I am using the product - and for me, that mean I will pay for it.

"I said in an earlier thread that I would put the new material up on the website for FREE, and I meant it."

you did. I think I started that thread too!
"For everyone running games for C&C at your local cons/stores; remember to get the proper support from the company (like the rules shipped to you if you don't have them) please contact seskis via email."

Steve, this is the part that I have issue with. As an organizer of this convention, I sent you 2 different emails - May 27th and September 2nd and neither were answered. That's OK. my experience has been pretty poor with regards to replies that are not order related. I would have loved support, but I did not expect it due to past experiences.

Furthermore. when I was visiting the website, looking for an address that might be a better one to send an email about a convention to, http://www.trolllord.com/company/index.html did not indicate Seskis - and I don't know who that is, his relation to TLG, and how can I or should I know that he is the "man" when it comes to all things TLG and conventions? if its not up on your website - but only in a message board posting - that I'm sorry to say, I don't take as "corporate truth". the information on your website I do. Change the site if you want him to be "the man"

Steve, you say: "But if you would email these complaints directly to me or Peter I would appreciate it. It is a rare day when I don't respond to customer complaints. And if you would make me aware of the situation you are in I would move heaven and earth to fix it, get you the material you need so you can run the games. "

and I do appreciate it... really! but why [sigh] must our relationship be based on after-the-fact damage control? for a silly little module (and I do know I've blown this way out of proportion), I DON'T WANT you moving heaven and earth - I just want it to work, period! I want you moving heaven and earth getting the CKG and other projects out the door...

Dachda:

"This is why I love TLG. Small enough to have screw-ups, true, but small enough to personally correct the problem and find a solution."

yup!

Danger:

"But, if you don't think you can take Lure of Delusion and run it with a 1st Print Handbook with little to no issues then you are being less than honest."

Equally - you are being less than honest from the perspective of a new gamer, or a young gamer, to think this is correct behaviour. IME, I want the kid who got the 3rd printing book for his birthday as his first ever experience into role playing, and this module as his christmas gift from grandma - to be able to fully enjoy it without gsaying "WTF is this all about". without having to search multiple web sites for missing content, or figuring out he has to be a daily reader of these message boards to get the "full" picture... I honestly think that these message boards sometimes warps ones views of what the general population of C&C gamers is all about. the vast majority of them are not regulars on these forums, and thus, don't know all the subtle hacks one must do to get basic company produced modules to run BtB.

further

"And of course with Steve's response TLG yet again proves just how classy, kick ass they are."

yes, I agree. first class customer support after the fact. I have been following and hanging out around here since 2003/2004 - sometime around then... as kick ass as they are (and they are!), to truly kick ass, is to NOT do damage control in the first place (ideal world, i realize...)

Serl:

"I'd be happy to help with the "irrata document" if you wanted, Steve. I'm sure it wouldn't be too much to do, really..."

AS long as these documents are on the main TLG website, I've no problem with that, but as with other errata that's strewn around all kinds of different, non-company websites, that is not customer friendly..

Anyway.. Thanks Steve for your reply... as much as I bitch, I really HATE bitching.... Cheers to everyone wish me luck on the trial run tomorrow, and if you are interested, I'll tell you how a 1st editioner fairs with this 2nd edition module
J.

[Troll Lord]

Jmann,

Thanks for the reply.

But two things of note. And this isn't just to you, but everyone in general as a great deal of the spirit of what C&C actually is, and why its so fun, is being lost in these discussions.

1) Concerning placing a disclaimer on the adventure: "you need the 4th printing to play this book". We won't do that because it goes against the spirit of the Players Handbook. The very essence of the game. The idea behind C&C, the whole idea, not in part, but the idea behind C&C is to play through it. You don't need rules. Even when we use them. You don't need them.

When Gary Gygax put in a skills system in the Yggsburgh setting it didn't fit with the rules given in the PH 1st, 2nd or 3rd printings. But we all played through it; or we used it; or we didn't and ignored it.

The adventure you have in hand has one encounter that has a half class in it (and for the record that is a damn good adventure folks) and some spells you don't have. It doesn't matter. Play through it. Role play through it. In fact that is a perfect case study of the strength of C&C.

Let me say that again: that is the strength of C&C. You don't need that class in a half, or the spells. The rules are so simple that you can alter it without really changing the game you are playing.

This is especially relevant for new players, people being introduced to the game because they don't know how to play through situations. They don't know how to make a skill system on the spot. Its not in their gaming experience. Its important that the CK and the player be able to say, okay, I'm going to change this because I don't have it or I can't get it or it doesn't make sense.

Now, before anyone says, "that's not realistic. we have to have mechanics to play the official game." No you don't. Really. I've played since 1977. I never used the DMG, not until about 1989 or so when Mac started quoting rules out of it. Davis never uses the M&T. Ever. Makes it all up on the spot. That is the essence of C&C. That is what makes it fun.

I know the next response. Playing through a tournament module for newbe, I don't have time to play through it. I can do it, but I don't have time ... understood, see part 2 below.

2) Jmann. I have no doubt you emailed. And I have no doubt I read it and marked it for a reply. And I have no doubt that in the insane amount of work I did this summer that i forgot.

But honestly folks, and I'm being very sincere here, I do not have time to manage a support system for fans promoting the game. Why did Robert work on the Society so long by himself? Why don't we send 48 copies of stuff to enworld? Why don't we give more convention stuff away? Why didn't we post or haven't posted seskis' email?

We have not had time. WE still don't have time (reference the CKG post below). We have only recently, in the past 5 months managed to get someone (McBain) to work the conventions for us. That is beginning to take shape. Jim Ward, contrary to someone's rather silly post about him ruining the company, has salvaged the Crusader and made it monthly. And only recently, in the past few weeks has the relationship with John Seskis come to be a working relationship to manage the Society and only through that have we begun to orchestrate setting up a structure within which fans can promote the game...folks like you. But it still is not ready. I wish it were. But it is not.

Why do I have to do damage control? I didn't even know you were doing what you were doing because I don't have any structure set up to help you do what you are doing.

Because we've only brought this together, and only loosely right now in the past 8 weeks and the promotional content is not available for distribution or use. Its in the conception phase. I can't give you the support you need months ago because it didn't exist months ago and is still in its infancy. Its not going to work well in the next few months either.

If I sound frustrated, its because I am a little frustrated. I'm being faulted for something I didn't even know was happening.

In other thoughts.

This isn't a second edition. Not at all. I don't even know what that means. You are the CK. It is YOUR game. If you are running a game and someone brings in a barbarian from the 4th printing, Just say no. Or say yes. The rules of the game have not changed. Not at all. The barbarian has changed. But not really. Your the CK. Just say no. Its that easy.

Tom Tullis called today because he's been running promotional games in his home town (this is tom from fat dragon games). And he asked me what C&C is. And really folks I'm beginning to think that this is the core of what these discussions are about. The CKG, the new printings, the use of the word core etc. What is C&C? How do we define it? That is what we are struggling with.

Well, I'm not. C&C is an adaptable role playing game that engenders a gaming environment where one is bound only by imagination. When so unleashed, one can act without restraint to create a gaming environment that is fun for everyone. C&C is not a realistic simulation game, C&C is a fantasy game where imagination rules. It is your game, where you rule.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[gideon_thorne]

A thought. There's one reason I like dealing with new players when I introduce this game to them. They are not bound by what 'must' be in a rule book to play. And, are some of the most consistently creative players I've encountered when I demo this game at conventions.

Its an rpg, its a game who's fetters are limited only by the imagination, not by some random numbers on dice, or involved verbiage in a book.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[serleran]

The monkeys need to be fed. We are all bananas.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[Fat Dragon Games]

Troll Lord wrote:
It is a rare day when I don't respond to customer complaints.

Yep- every time I complain I get a very prompt response of "F-YOU TULLIS!" from Steve.
_________________
Thomas A. Tullis

Fat Dragon Games
www.fatdragongames.com

Castles & Crusades...more D&D than D&D.

[DangerDwarf]

jman5000 wrote:
Equally - you are being less than honest from the perspective of a new gamer, or a young gamer, to think this is correct behaviour.

J.

I think thats our main point of contention. I DONT view it as inappropriate. Many of us didn't have everything spelled out when we first started gaming and we turned out just fine.

[DangerDwarf]

Troll Lord wrote:
This is especially relevant for new players, people being introduced to the game because they don't know how to play through situations. They don't know how to make a skill system on the spot. Its not in their gaming experience. Its important that the CK and the player be able to say, okay, I'm going to change this because I don't have it or I can't get it or it doesn't make sense.

[Omote]

I guess this is all a matter of perspective. It seems pretty obvious that TLG guys have never run a game or a module by the book. I think that most of them come from the perspective that these modules are simply an outline of events that transpire during the course of the adventure. Sure, throw some mechanics in there to make the module 24 pages, but just play. The details are not that important.

There are two types of players, one who runs stuff very much BTB and don't stray far from the rules, and the other that doesn't sweat the small stuff. It's clear that TLG doesn't think this way, or produce material in this way at all. I have a funny feeling that if it were viable, TLG would produce modules in a very free-form way with a series of summaries or outlines of events, and some basic mechanical information and then ship it out to players. But realistically that can't happen. Modules have to conform to some sort of industry standard, that obviously goes against the thought process of the Troll Dudes.

I'm not condoning the typos and the other problems with the Lure of Delusion module. But, beyond all of that stuff that is frustrating, the Lure of Delusion is a great module, with a strong story, and great pacing for adventure. A very awesome tournament module, if not a bit long for one.
Not everybody runs and RPG like this, but for myself I will say that once I fully understand a game, the mechanics during the course of an adventure come naturally. I don't really worry about a +1 here, or an extra half-class there. The players will know nothing about these mechanical issues if you don't point them out to them. The players will only see an interesting NPC or a villinous opponent. All the mechanical stuff is secondary to playing the game IMO.

But it is understood that not every player/CK plays in this way and the Trolls do. I guess that is something to consider about playing a C&C adventure module.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Coleston the Cavalier]

Troll Lord wrote:
Jmann,

Thanks for the reply.

But two things of note. And this isn't just to you, but everyone in general as a great deal of the spirit of what C&C actually is, and why its so fun, is being lost in these discussions.

1) Concerning placing a disclaimer on the adventure: "you need the 4th printing to play this book". We won't do that because it goes against the spirit of the Players Handbook. The very essence of the game. The idea behind C&C, the whole idea, not in part, but the idea behind C&C is to play through it. You don't need rules. Even when we use them. You don't need them.

When Gary Gygax put in a skills system in the Yggsburgh setting it didn't fit with the rules given in the PH 1st, 2nd or 3rd printings. But we all played through it; or we used it; or we didn't and ignored it.

The adventure you have in hand has one encounter that has a half class in it (and for the record that is a damn good adventure folks) and some spells you don't have. It doesn't matter. Play through it. Role play through it. In fact that is a perfect case study of the strength of C&C.

Let me say that again: that is the strength of C&C. You don't need that class in a half, or the spells. The rules are so simple that you can alter it without really changing the game you are playing.

This is especially relevant for new players, people being introduced to the game because they don't know how to play through situations. They don't know how to make a skill system on the spot. Its not in their gaming experience. Its important that the CK and the player be able to say, okay, I'm going to change this because I don't have it or I can't get it or it doesn't make sense.

Now, before anyone says, "that's not realistic. we have to have mechanics to play the official game." No you don't. Really. I've played since 1977. I never used the DMG, not until about 1989 or so when Mac started quoting rules out of it. Davis never uses the M&T. Ever. Makes it all up on the spot. That is the essence of C&C. That is what makes it fun.

I know the next response. Playing through a tournament module for newbe, I don't have time to play through it. I can do it, but I don't have time ... understood, see part 2 below.

2) Jmann. I have no doubt you emailed. And I have no doubt I read it and marked it for a reply. And I have no doubt that in the insane amount of work I did this summer that i forgot.

But honestly folks, and I'm being very sincere here, I do not have time to manage a support system for fans promoting the game. Why did Robert work on the Society so long by himself? Why don't we send 48 copies of stuff to enworld? Why don't we give more convention stuff away? Why didn't we post or haven't posted seskis' email?

We have not had time. WE still don't have time (reference the CKG post below). We have only recently, in the past 5 months managed to get someone (McBain) to work the conventions for us. That is beginning to take shape. Jim Ward, contrary to someone's rather silly post about him ruining the company, has salvaged the Crusader and made it monthly. And only recently, in the past few weeks has the relationship with John Seskis come to be a working relationship to manage the Society and only through that have we begun to orchestrate setting up a structure within which fans can promote the game...folks like you. But it still is not ready. I wish it were. But it is not.

Why do I have to do damage control? I didn't even know you were doing what you were doing because I don't have any structure set up to help you do what you are doing.

Because we've only brought this together, and only loosely right now in the past 8 weeks and the promotional content is not available for distribution or use. Its in the conception phase. I can't give you the support you need months ago because it didn't exist months ago and is still in its infancy. Its not going to work well in the next few months either.

If I sound frustrated, its because I am a little frustrated. I'm being faulted for something I didn't even know was happening.

In other thoughts.

This isn't a second edition. Not at all. I don't even know what that means. You are the CK. It is YOUR game. If you are running a game and someone brings in a barbarian from the 4th printing, Just say no. Or say yes. The rules of the game have not changed. Not at all. The barbarian has changed. But not really. Your the CK. Just say no. Its that easy.

Tom Tullis called today because he's been running promotional games in his home town (this is tom from fat dragon games). And he asked me what C&C is. And really folks I'm beginning to think that this is the core of what these discussions are about. The CKG, the new printings, the use of the word core etc. What is C&C? How do we define it? That is what we are struggling with.

Well, I'm not. C&C is an adaptable role playing game that engenders a gaming environment where one is bound only by imagination. When so unleashed, one can act without restraint to create a gaming environment that is fun for everyone. C&C is not a realistic simulation game, C&C is a fantasy game where imagination rules. It is your game, where you rule.

Steve

I find this answer very disappointing.

The OP has every right to complain about a product he purchased in order to showcase C&C to new folks - in fact, a product that is supposed to be designed to do just that.

He mentioned that the module has:

Quote:
-obvious editing and spelling issues

- Encounter charts that say they are for "Shades of Mist" and include areas that have are not on the map or in the module

- mention of pre-generated characters that are not actually part of product nor any indication where they might be

- encounters that use rules unique to the 4th printing of the PHB

Apparently he he tried in vain to contact TLG about it and the only response he has received is when, in his utter disappointment, he posts his reasons for his frustration.

Steve, while I understand and agree with what you have written in your reply, if you step back and look at it from a bit of distance, it reads as if you are essentially telling him to "use his imagination," "make it up as you go" and "everyone should play a convention module at least once before running it." Clearly, the OP HAS checked out the module in detail prior to using it. Sure, C&C is VERY flexible - that's one of the reasons we love it so much and we all know that the PHB was not released when it was supposed to be for reasons beyond TLG control. But the OP has every right to be upset about the situation. All of us scrambling around to try and make it playable as is for him is just more damage control.

I share the OP frustration. I realize that TLG is in a hard place right now, but something has to be done to get things under control.

My frustration runs a little deeper than even the OP's and I'm afraid if I don't air it, things will only get patched over and in another few months there will be another thread just like this one.

Everybody knows that I am trying my best (with Moriarty's & Relaxo's fantastic help) to and support C&C and TLG as a third party publisher. I have invested hundreds of hours, hundreds of dollars (soon to be a few thousand) into developing and publishing Castles & Crusades material.

But even I have to email repeatedly (which are never responded to), call on the phone and beg to get a response. I'll give you just two examples.

For example, I know that things at TLG are busy, but I have been waiting for over three months now (three phone calls & six emails) on just a simple estimate on how much it would cost me to have TLG do BHP's print runs so that I can get our C&C stuff into stores. I HAVE to get material printed up in a couple of weeks and I would much rather pay TLG to do it, but I will have to go to another printer.

Here's another example, I ordered the perfect-bound edition of OG&G and the PHB right after Gencon. In fact I called twice - on two different days and spoke with Steve the first time and with Mark the second time. My orders still haven't been fulfilled. So here I am, a third-party publisher for C&C and I don't even have the newest set of rules for the game even though I tried to buy them. I have to keep asking Moriarty (who has the new books) to look things up for me.

It makes one wonder if TLG really wants BHP to publish C&C material at all. But then I read posts like this one, and I realize that things at TLG must be completely out-of-control. I share the frustration. I realize that TLG is in a hard place right now, but something has to be done to get things under control.
_________________


John Adams

[jman5000]

Thanks steve,

I'm not going to keep on harping, I've said my rant. it reads like a good module and after tonight, hopefully that will bear itself out.

it saddens me that I cannot play the module as written - because I don't have the proper "tools" for it. Sure, I can change it - then again, why do I buy modules from you again if that's going to be the reply?

its not just that one encounter. The final encounter mentions a Ungern as part of the entourage.

Quickly now. what page in the M&T contains the Ungern?

OK, trick question - it doesn't. What additional TLG product must you buy in order to have a correct write-up of an Ungern - no peaking at your bookshelf...

sure, the rote answer from the fanboy is going to be "make it up" but make what up, on what reference? is an Ungern a worm, a giant, or a extra-dimensional thought? (I know what it is...). My opinion is that the excuse of "make whatever you want up to fit your game" is a bit of a straw man. I buy the module so I don't have to make this stuff up. if you TRULY believed this, sell modules which are only skeletons - blank rooms and encounter areas and really force the GM to fill in all the blanks.

Steve,

Regarding the support emails/phones. sorry if I came across harsh. perhaps I am the only one with this problem, I don't know. I do know that I'm not a very big "pick up the phone and chat" kind of guy, and when given the opportunity to pick between phone and email - I will 100% of the time use email.

I also have an expectation that if email is going to be a supported method of communication - then it will be treated and acted upon at the same level as phone calls. and I guess in only my case, that has not been my experience.

that's cool! I get it, after these years I understand it, and I've basically routed around the problem. no worries. but from one mans experience, TLG does not give good email. TLG gives GREAT (AWESOME!!!) customer service after a problem has been identified, and that more than anything else has kept me as a somewhat regular and loyal customer.

Anyway. Sorry to have gone off on a tangent there. the module does look like fun. I'll try and modify things to fit the version of C&C which I own and which I'll be pimping at the con. I have no problem making things up on the fly, I just wonder why I have to spend money to do that with a product that I thought had that taken care of for me.

we each do things different, play different, mine IS not any more or less wrong than everyone else's way of playing/running a game - though the reply from some suggests that I'm somehow "playing the game wrong".

Cheers,

J.

[Christina Stiles]

Steve, I think part of your answer in getting TLG back in order is to let some of the qualified fans step in and do some things for the Trolls, like John is doing with the Society. This would free up your time to handle business matters. I think Eden Studios did a lot of this when they were getting product out.

Many of us would be willing to step in and lift some of the burden from you. I've mentioned several times that I'd be willing to help edit product--even write product. I'm also willing to run games at cons. I'm a fan who wants to see TLG flourish, and I'm also a seasoned freelance writer/editor who could help.
_________________
Christina Stiles

The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com

[Troll Lord]

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
I find this answer very disappointing.

The OP has every right to complain about a product he purchased in order to showcase C&C to new folks - in fact, a product that is supposed to be designed to do just that.

He mentioned that the module has:


Apparently he he tried in vain to contact TLG about it and the only response he has received is when, in his utter disappointment, he posts his reasons for his frustration.

No. Your are off base. Jmann never contacted me about problems about Lure of Delusion. He contacted, if I'm reading his posts correctly, about running C&C at his local conventions. No one has emailed TLG with a complaint about Lure of Delusion.

Jmann's post is the first one I have heard and as I said in an earlier post. His complaints about the module are legitimate.

My above answer is in direct reference to the suggestion to put "compatible with 4th printing only." That won't happen for the reasons I sited. We didn't do that on Gary's material and we aren't going to start now.

Coleston the Cavalier wrote:
I share the OP frustration. I realize that TLG is in a hard place right now, but something has to be done to get things under control.

My frustration runs a little deeper than even the OP's and I'm afraid if I don't air it, things will only get patched over and in another few months there will be another thread just like this one.

Everybody knows that I am trying my best (with Moriarty's & Relaxo's fantastic help) to and support C&C and TLG as a third party publisher. I have invested hundreds of hours, hundreds of dollars (soon to be a few thousand) into developing and publishing Castles & Crusades material.

But even I have to email repeatedly (which are never responded to), call on the phone and beg to get a response. I'll give you just two examples.

For example, I know that things at TLG are busy, but I have been waiting for over three months now (three phone calls & six emails) on just a simple estimate on how much it would cost me to have TLG do BHP's print runs so that I can get our C&C stuff into stores. I HAVE to get material printed up in a couple of weeks and I would much rather pay TLG to do it, but I will have to go to another printer.

Here's another example, I ordered the perfect-bound edition of OG&G and the PHB right after Gencon. In fact I called twice - on two different days and spoke with Steve the first time and with Mark the second time. My orders still haven't been fulfilled. So here I am, a third-party publisher for C&C and I don't even have the newest set of rules for the game even though I tried to buy them. I have to keep asking Moriarty (who has the new books) to look things up for me.

It makes one wonder if TLG really wants BHP to publish C&C material at all. But then I read posts like this one, and I realize that things at TLG must be completely out-of-control. I share the frustration. I realize that TLG is in a hard place right now, but something has to be done to get things under control.

The reason you have not gotten your responses as quickly and as efficiently as you want are the very same reasons that Jmann did not concerning running games. TLG has no program set up, legal or otherwise, to lend support to 3rd party publishers. We have done some very light work with Goodman Games but only because I have a very good personal relationship with Joe Goodman.

Now does that mean we don't want it. Hell no! Of course we want 3rd party support for the game. That is just awesome. And I hope you are seeing a return for the hundreds/thousands of dollars you have invested.

But how much support can we give? No much now. Even getting the contracts together costs money and more importantly time. Both commodities that are in short supply.

This is the same problem Jmann is having. The very same problem. He's doing everything he can to promote the game, but he's doing it without guidance from the company. I can't give him that guidance because I don't have time.

NOW all that said we are working toward that goal now. Truthfully right now. I've been working with John to get this off the ground and Brian to set the webapges up and Game Hermit to get the pdfs rolling and Mark to make sure we have primers and the like on hand (just sent a hand full to Tom Tullis yesterday. In fact he's the first one to get material to promo the game). But this is only happening now!

The logos you have wanted have been easy to access; i will make is so,when I have time to do.

More is coming.

But it takes time, constant time. Meaning to say its not a end user type of deal. Support has to come before and after.

The posts above are about the spirit of C&C. What type of game it is and is not. Where its strengths lie and are not.

(this aspect of this conversation has nothing to do with editing, nothing at all).

Concerning your printing, you never answered by email on the ledger sheets. I'm reading the notated email now as its in my inbox. You mentioned you wanted 20 page books, without covers. I emailed asking you whether you wanted those covers printed separately or not at all.

Steve

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[DangerDwarf]

jman5000 wrote:
its not just that one encounter. The final encounter mentions a Ungern as part of the entourage.

Quickly now. what page in the M&T contains the Ungern?

OK, trick question - it doesn't. What additional TLG product must you buy in order to have a correct write-up of an Ungern - no peaking at your bookshelf...

sure, the rote answer from the fanboy is going to be "make it up" but make what up, on what reference? is an Ungern a worm, a giant, or a extra-dimensional thought? (I know what it is...). My opinion is that the excuse of "make whatever you want up to fit your game" is a bit of a straw man.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Ungerns a campaign specific critters. Lure of Delusion is set in that specific setting. I don't find it unreasonable to purchase Monsters of Aihrde I to get the "official" write up if that is what you want.

Quote:
we each do things different, play different, mine IS not any more or less wrong than everyone else's way of playing/running a game - though the reply from some suggests that I'm somehow "playing the game wrong".

You are correct, people do things different. Does it mean that they are doing it wrong? Nope, gaming is full of differing playstyles and philosophies. Game companies are no different. C&C has always had intentional vaugueries and outright omissions. It has always been very much in their way of doing things. They aren't doing it wrong either.

[Troll Lord]

jman5000 wrote:
Thanks steve,

I'm not going to keep on harping, I've said my rant. it reads like a good module and after tonight, hopefully that will bear itself out.

it saddens me that I cannot play the module as written - because I don't have the proper "tools" for it. Sure, I can change it - then again, why do I buy modules from you again if that's going to be the reply?

I knew the post I put up wouldn't be understood. I already mentioned that the module was messed up in another thread. I mentioned that once and took responsibiblity. I asked you to PM me about it.

Again: this is the VERY FIRST i have hard of your having trouble with Lure of Delusion. You didn't email me, face book me, PM me, IM me, call me or anything else about Lure of Delusion. You posted on the boards first.

My post above that saddens you so, is in direct reference to "this is compatible with" on the front cover. Has nothing to do with Lure of Delusion specifically but the marketing of the game in general.

Yes, to spell it out LURE OF DELUSION is f**k up. I get that part. But I am not going to retro fit the cover to say compatible with. It does not fit the context of the game.

jman5000 wrote:
its not just that one encounter. The final encounter mentions a Ungern as part of the entourage.

Quickly now. what page in the M&T contains the Ungern?

OK, trick question - it doesn't. What additional TLG product must you buy in order to have a correct write-up of an Ungern - no peaking at your bookshelf...

This is a legitimate complaint. Sure I don't know how often I have to say this.

I'll say it again LURE OF DELUSIONS IS f**k UP.

jman5000 wrote:
Steve,

Regarding the support emails/phones. sorry if I came across harsh. perhaps I am the only one with this problem, I don't know. I do know that I'm not a very big "pick up the phone and chat" kind of guy, and when given the opportunity to pick between phone and email - I will 100% of the time use email.

I also have an expectation that if email is going to be a supported method of communication - then it will be treated and acted upon at the same level as phone calls. and I guess in only my case, that has not been my experience.

that's cool! I get it, after these years I understand it, and I've basically routed around the problem. no worries. but from one mans experience, TLG does not give good email. TLG gives GREAT (AWESOME!!!) customer service after a problem has been identified, and that more than anything else has kept me as a somewhat regular and loyal customer.

Anyway. Sorry to have gone off on a tangent there. the module does look like fun. I'll try and modify things to fit the version of C&C which I own and which I'll be pimping at the con. I have no problem making things up on the fly, I just wonder why I have to spend money to do that with a product that I thought had that taken care of for me.

we each do things different, play different, mine IS not any more or less wrong than everyone else's way of playing/running a game - though the reply from some suggests that I'm somehow "playing the game wrong".

Cheers,

J.

And I know you can do all this. And I appreciate what you are doing pimping the game. Really I do. I know you all think I"m sitting back here ignoring emails and dodging questions because I want to, but I'm not. This summer was very busy with trying to get the PH out, before that it was Tainted Lands and legal problems, before that it was Gygax material being pulled. I'm busy guys. I haven't set this up because I'm busy. I want to get the support to you, but I can't, I'm too busy. September was spent raising 14000.00 dollars. That was a very busy time for me.

Its coming together, through my hard work and through the dedication and hard work of others. Its a slow process. It sucks. But there it is.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[jman5000]

just to be clear.

I did not contact TLG via email or phone regarding the descrepencies I found in the module.

the order of events was as follows.

I ordered via paypal a print copy of the module. I then realized there was no way in hell I'd get it in time for the trial run that I'm going to GM tonight.

So, on a lark, I decided to go to Drivethrurpg and see if there was a digital copy. yup, and so I bought it.

Then I read the pdf copy (mind, I bought this module twice, sight unseen becasue it was specifically billed as a C&C tournament module, not a 4th printing tournament module) and discovered several discrepancies between my understanding of the core rules and the rules required to play this (that encounter, mention of ungern etc...). this not being the first time I have noticed this (modules requiring additional unmentioned supplemental materials [either modules, the codex or crusader issues] I just got really upset.

the fault really is mine for a couple of reasons

1. with a title of "lure of delusions" I should have made the mental leap and deduced sight-unseen that this was a heavy illusionist centered adventure, ergo, highlighting one of the more significant changes in the 4th printing

2. that I did not time my purchases properly, so I had to make multiple purchases of the same product in order to meet my own personal needs

3. that I misread what "tournament module" meant. I had assumed that while it was produced for Gencon, that it was not meant ONLY for gencon and the limited release of 4th printing at that event.

My bad. but I did not contact Steve or TLG before ranting... like I said, I email and I don't have good luck with email adn TLG
Cheers,

J.

[Geleg]

Christina Stiles wrote:
Steve, I think part of your answer in getting TLG back in order is to let some of the qualified fans step in and do some things for the Trolls, like John is doing with the Society. This would free up your time to handle business matters. I think Eden Studios did a lot of this when they were getting product out.

Many of us would be willing to step in and lift some of the burden from you. I've mentioned several times that I'd be willing to help edit product--even write product. I'm also willing to run games at cons. I'm a fan who wants to see TLG flourish, and I'm also a seasoned freelance writer/editor who could help.

QFT. Amen. +1 and so forth.

In fact this thread and Steve's poll about the CKG thread are linked in obvious ways. As Steve says about the CKG, he is swamped with the business aspects of TLG. It seems to me that problems like the Lure of Delusion one mentioned here might be aided if the company expanded to include some qualified (and vetted) volunteer support. It sounds to me as if Steve needs to be working at executive level organization and marketing. He/TLG needs other people - like John Wright (or John Adams? or others) to do some of the other kinds of things - editing for rules consistency, editing for grammar/typos, and whatever else. THis would hopefully be a shortterm fix until teh finances allow TLG to hire some other folks to help with these tasks.
_________________
The only thing you find in the middle of the road are dead animals and dumb Americans - Anton Newcombe

[Troll Lord]

jman5000 wrote:
just to be clear.

I did not contact TLG via email or phone regarding the descrepencies I found in the module.

the order of events was as follows.

I ordered via paypal a print copy of the module. I then realized there was no way in hell I'd get it in time for the trial run that I'm going to GM tonight.

So, on a lark, I decided to go to Drivethrurpg and see if there was a digital copy. yup, and so I bought it.

Then I read the pdf copy (mind, I bought this module twice, sight unseen becasue it was specifically billed as a C&C tournament module, not a 4th printing tournament module) and discovered several discrepancies between my understanding of the core rules and the rules required to play this (that encounter, mention of ungern etc...). this not being the first time I have noticed this (modules requiring additional unmentioned supplemental materials [either modules, the codex or crusader issues] I just got really upset.

the fault really is mine for a couple of reasons

1. with a title of "lure of delusions" I should have made the mental leap and deduced sight-unseen that this was a heavy illusionist centered adventure, ergo, highlighting one of the more significant changes in the 4th printing

2. that I did not time my purchases properly, so I had to make multiple purchases of the same product in order to meet my own personal needs

3. that I misread what "tournament module" meant. I had assumed that while it was produced for Gencon, that it was not meant ONLY for gencon and the limited release of 4th printing at that event.

My bad. but I did not contact Steve or TLG before ranting... like I said, I email and I don't have good luck with email adn TLG
Cheers,

J.

Thank you for that Jmann. But hopefully, in the near future, very near future this will all be set up through the society. And the plan is, so that it does not hit my work schedule, to make the material downloadable by everyone that wants to run. They then can turn in sheets with poitns on them to get paid in troll dollars. If they are missing something, or need something extra for a show (like Treebore has asked for posters) this too will be part of the order form.

Here's what we KNOW works. The ordering process.

Here's what doesn't work. When Robert asks for his comp copies via IM he never gets them. When he fills out the order form and sends it to orders@trolllord.com he generally gets them (but not this time Robert, as we have a bunch of stuff for you I've been savign up).

So we are going to take that template and use it for the CK program. When its set up (soon, in the next month or so) you will be able to download material or submit an order form. It will be verified with me or John or Peter and material will be sent out. Problems will be address through the chain of command.

Why haven't we announced this?

Because its not read to go live yet. If we did we would get constant calls about doing it and slow the process down. We'll announce it when its ready, which again should be soon.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[jman5000]

its not just that one encounter. The final encounter mentions a Ungern as part of the entourage.

Quickly now. what page in the M&T contains the Ungern?

OK, trick question - it doesn't. What additional TLG product must you buy in order to have a correct write-up of an Ungern - no peaking at your bookshelf...

sure, the rote answer from the fanboy is going to be "make it up" but make what up, on what reference? is an Ungern a worm, a giant, or a extra-dimensional thought? (I know what it is...). My opinion is that the excuse of "make whatever you want up to fit your game" is a bit of a straw man.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Ungerns a campaign specific critters. Lure of Delusion is set in that specific setting. I don't find it unreasonable to purchase Monsters of Aihrde I to get the "official" write up if that is what you want.

we each do things different, play different, mine IS not any more or less wrong than everyone else's way of playing/running a game - though the reply from some suggests that I'm somehow "playing the game wrong".

You are correct, people do things different. Does it mean that they are doing it wrong? Nope, gaming is full of differing playstyles and philosophies. Game companies are no different. C&C has always had intentional vaugueries and outright omissions. It has always been very much in their way of doing things. They aren't doing it wrong either.

Danger, I see your call and raise you.

Where in any part of the back cover or web site description is there mention of this is a campaign specific module. Must I, as a consumer intuitively know that the "Darkenfold" forest is actually a region found within the codex or the afterwinter dark folio? also, for the most part, that module was campaign agnostic until pg 10 (out of 12 pages) in which there is a single mention of the Ungern.

its not what I want, its what I get.

Again. *I* am wrong in that *I* somehow don't play the game right, or intuitively just know what products *I* must bring to the table to play it as it is meant...

its a very strange way to build fans for a game Danger - telling a fan that they are wrong, that they should know what they must buy, and to just change things anyway.

Cheers,

J.

[Troll Lord]

Christina Stiles wrote:
Steve, I think part of your answer in getting TLG back in order is to let some of the qualified fans step in and do some things for the Trolls, like John is doing with the Society. This would free up your time to handle business matters. I think Eden Studios did a lot of this when they were getting product out.

Many of us would be willing to step in and lift some of the burden from you. I've mentioned several times that I'd be willing to help edit product--even write product. I'm also willing to run games at cons. I'm a fan who wants to see TLG flourish, and I'm also a seasoned freelance writer/editor who could help.

I love you for this. I really do. And Jim Ward is singing your praises. And I will take you up on this, when I can.

Right now I have my hands full keeping the paid employees working, adding more personnel is not easy.

And do keep in mind, please, and please folks though I know you are going to take this the wrong way I don't mean it thus, I have had very bad experiences with volunteers. That has caused the company grievous harm in the past. I didn't hire Cory until I knew I could pay him.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Coleston the Cavalier]

_________________


John Adams

[Christina Stiles]

Troll Lord wrote:
I love you for this. I really do. And Jim Ward is singing your praises. And I will take you up on this, when I can.

Right now I have my hands full keeping the paid employees working, adding more personnel is not easy.

Steve, I can be paid in product. I'm not asking for a paying gig at this point.
_________________
Christina Stiles

The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com

[Troll Lord]

Christina Stiles wrote:
Steve, I can be paid in product. I'm not asking for a paying gig at this point.

I know you will and can and you don't want any money. But that arrangement breaks down on my end, not yours. Your email is on the top of my list as you come highly recommended.

I really do appreciate the offer though.

Steve
_________________
The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

[Omote]

Yeah, I'm sure Steve knows that there are more than a few of us out there that are willing to help, even for no payment at all. But coordinating volunteers is time consuming endeavor, and as said, doesn't usually pan out. Which causes vast amounts of delays.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[seskis281]

All of this is tied together it seems... frustrations on Steve's end, frustrations on fans' end...

I mentioned hitting a reset button on things in the other thread - so I'll propose that again.

The important thing is to find solutions for the future - and the biggest part of that would seem to be finding time & revenue to get Steve, who is essentially IT as manager AND designer AND customer service rep, to get to a place where he and the co. aren't struggling to catch up on all the different areas.

The 1st thing is the CKG gorilla in the room. Steve's right, that and the confluence of economic events and everything else have caused him to be in a constant state of distraction and frustration with all the other tasks and needed management things - from the con protocols to handling Coleston's needs as a 3pp, to the quality control and continuity management on products. Steve: GET THE GORILLA OFF YOUR BACK!

1. Put out the CKG as what it can be NOW. Clear that once and for all off the table. Whether it's what person x or person y "wanted" it to be, it's clear you need it out, generating revenue and not the weight it has been so long over your head.

2. Once done, take a week to just put the management needs back on track with these sorts of things - I know easier said than done, but I think carving out a time after you clear the CKG to do so will allow you to get the plans you want and need in place to clarify all the chains and processes.

3. As bad as your experiences were with utilizing "non-fully-paid" staff help, give some trust again to one or two who are willing on the ONE AREA of editing/proofing. Take Christina and Pat (Moriarty) up on their offers - you just can't be expected to juggle all the balls in the air at once. It may seem problematic, but can it be more problematic than where you are now with time and frustration? I think you will find a different experience with these "volunteers" than your negative experiences in the past.

4. Once you've done those things, step back and take a good look at the overall Anvil and production needs. Start over in intended timelines, clear some things that might not be priority, and really concentrate on those things which you feel are BOTH good for the game (including what YOU want to do) and are going to be financially beneficial - i.e. M&T of Aihrde.

To all of us:

1. Let's give Steve a little room to breathe here guys - I understand completely how overwhelmed he is, and when you're under that much weight it's hard to be able to think clearly or see the way to the end of the tunnel.

2. Have more understanding for each other in how we view the game - you can't have a community without a large number of disparate opinions on what the nature of the game is personally to each of us, what we want from the co., all of that.

Just... breathe....
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright

Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/

High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org

[DangerDwarf]

jman5000 wrote:
Again. *I* am wrong in that *I* somehow don't play the game right, or intuitively just know what products *I* must bring to the table to play it as it is meant...

its a very strange way to build fans for a game Danger - telling a fan that they are wrong, that they should know what they must buy, and to just change things anyway.

I think you are reading way too much into it. I don't see it saying any of those things.

It is what it is. A $5 module. Nothing more, nothing less.

By their very nature, modules are meant to be changed, redone, etc. Always have been.

If Goobersnaps isn't the name of the God of Law in your campaign, you are expected to change it to Zomoflat so it fits. Your setting doesn't have a location called WikiWiki Wood? Change it. Mad Margle the Wizard's spell selection as written doesn't pose a challenge to your unique party composition? Switch it up.

Modules, by their very nature, have a certain level of assumed change to make it fit for your personal game. If you read the back of a module and on the back notice even 1 single place name that doesn't exist in your world then yes, you should assume you might have to make some changes. Its the nature of the beast.

I've never seen TLG try to rob or snub their customers. I've never seen them tell anyone they are playing wrong. I doubt I ever will.

[DangerDwarf]

seskis281 wrote:
To all of us:

1. Let's give Steve a little room to breathe here guys - I understand completely how overwhelmed he is, and when you're under that much weight it's hard to be able to think clearly or see the way to the end of the tunnel.

2. Have more understanding for each other in how we view the game - you can't have a community without a large number of disparate opinions on what the nature of the game is personally to each of us, what we want from the co., all of that.

Just... breathe....

You always make sense.

Dammit.

[Traveller]

Troll Lord wrote:
And do keep in mind, please, and please folks though I know you are going to take this the wrong way I don't mean it thus, I have had very bad experiences with volunteers. That has caused the company grievous harm in the past. I didn't hire Cory until I knew I could pay him.

Steve, I understand where you are coming from here, because it's just like any other relationship. You get betrayed and you find yourself unwilling or unable to trust the other person. But not every person who volunteers is out to do the company harm. I would think I am the proof of that.

Speaking of proof, I do have to get my copy of the 4th print PHB so I can check for anything that's out of whack.
_________________
NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[jman5000]

Danger, you are making a huge assumptive leap here. what is the saying.. Post hoc ergo propter hoc... (hopefully I'm not mangling things too badly).

I'm looking at things from this point of view (and maybe this is wrong.. perhaps this edge case is actually not ever going to happen).

We have a 13 year old. has spent all his life playing world of warcraft, in which everything is spoon fed to him, and he doesn't every have to "change" things.

mom is really frustrated with all the time he's spending on the computer, so she decides he needs a hobby. she remembers this role-playing thing and goes out and buys the 3rd printing of the phb adn M&T (Because, that was what was on the shelf 3 months ago when she bought it).

Mom gives son the books. son loves the book. son only has these 2 books as his SOLE reference to the hobby of role playing. Son wants to play. Son asks for christmas gift a C&C module. Grandma, not having any clue what C&C is, goes to the website and just randomly clicks on Lure of Delusions - because its cheap and she's already bought grandson a pile of socks.

Son gets book for xmas. son is stoked. Son calls all his buddies over to play this neat new game. son reads for the first time a "module" not having any idea what a "module" is, other than it being an "adventure" to run with your friends.

son is now faced with the following

- spells that don't exist

- monsters that have no writeup

- multi-classing

- no idea what appropriate characters are for this module

kid has no prior experience. kid will use (imo) most of the names, regions etc from the module as is. Kid has no idea that these names are part of an existing campaign world.. Kid doesn't know that the Darkenfold is part of Erde and ergo, the monsters he knows nothing about is also part of Erde.

you don't see a problem Danger, because you are experienced. I have a problem because its incomplete, and incompatible with prior printings.

however, strictly speaking, this WoW kid has had a bad experience with his first encounter with a role playing game module.

my belief is this:

- Every single module - unless its clearly states as being part of a series (like the A series) should ASSUME that this is the VERY FIRST module that the reader has ever looked at, and should be designed accordingly. Look at Keep on the Borderlands and how much actual game advice is contained within those pages. now I'm obviously not suggesting that sort of detail, but there should be some kind of middle ground. Advice for teh newbie, but easily skipped for the experienced GM.

- Every single module should be feature complete - that there is no assumption that spells, monsters, items and gear that is not found in the core 2 books, and currently, those core 2 books with the highest readership are non 4th printing books. That if there is a campaign specific monster which is recurring in multiple modules (ungern for eg), that the ungern is fully statted out in EVERY module that contains it. (see point 1)

- Every single module should be self-contained. there must not be any expectation that the reader (see point one above) is experienced, has bookmarked every C&C related link where there *MIGHT* be content related to this adventure, and is an active, frequent and daily reader of the message boards.

- Every single module should explain how a module is to be used. that its a framework and should be changed or modified. and that this is the purpose of modules

- All modules which deviate from these guidelines, should clearly state how they deviate, in a place that doesn't require purchasing the product and reading to page 10 to find out. Thus, if you want to have recurring campaign specific monsters and not stat them out - then say that monsters are used from Monsters of Erde Volume 1. or if you want to include the new illusionist spells - stipulate that it includes spells from the 4th edition... Give that buyer who has never purchased anything else from TLG a chance to understand what he needs to actually play that game...

Danger. this is pretty basic stuff. wont take more than 1/2 a page - and would greatly enhance the overall worth of the module.

your argue as a fanboy who doesn't need any advice on how to play a game. but Steve has CLEARLY stated that you are NOT his primary target market, that TLG is very interested in attracting new blood into the hobby and C&C in particular.

Anyway. at this point, we will agree to disagree. its OK by you to modify and change anything. its OK for me - if its stipulated.

but don't assume that this is the way that everyone should act.

Cheers,

J.

[DangerDwarf]

I know what you are saying Jman, and to a degree I can sympathize, and that particular argument has even circulated on the boards several times.

But, and maybe its wrong of me, but I view it as the Myth of Johnny N00b.

The RPG market is a niche market and C&C fills a niche within that niche. It's a succeful niche to be sure...but its still a niche within a niche.

The current distribution system and TLG infrastructure makes it so that the likelihood of little Johnny N00B and his group of N00B buddies stumbling across C&C and playing it without any previous RPG experience to be fairly slim. Sure, not the most wonderful of things but it is true and I don't see that changing any in the forseeable future. TLG has problems keeping up the pace for its current niche fan base, let alone a "mainstream one".

Even if Johhny and his cohorts stumble across C&C as brand new to gaming I still don't see the need to continue the spoon feeding. When I was Johhny N00b back in the day I was playing D&D when my well meaning uncle bought me a module for MERPs for my birthday. Wow, that wasn't even for the same game system but I ran it anyways, and even managed to work out how.

So, I don't feel I'm taking a fanboy stance, I'm being rather practical I think. I've never shied away from criticizing TLG when I felt it was needed. I just fail to see how this module rises to a "For Shame" type problem.