OGL question

[angelius]

To those that may know - when does an author of a RPG need to put in the OGL license stuff in the back of his book?
_________________
Big Iron Vault Your friendly neighbourhood gaming magazine. Check out our new webcomic, The Heindrich Project!

[Treebore]

angelius wrote:
To those that may know - when does an author of a RPG need to put in the OGL license stuff in the back of his book?

In every book in which the material is used or referenced. Like both the C&C PH and M&T have it, because they are derived from OGL material.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[angelius]

Can you give me an example of the material that C&C references? I'm just trying to understand this myself.

I would find it difficult to swallow if a book used the word "Elf" and was forced to use a OGL - I would argue that WOTC doesn't own that term.
_________________
Big Iron Vault Your friendly neighbourhood gaming magazine. Check out our new webcomic, The Heindrich Project!

[serleran]

Any terms defined in the OGL, such as Strength, Hit Points, Armor Class, Elf, Fighter... while they are not "owned," the specific usage of them is, and that is how they'd get you.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[angelius]

I hear ya. So really its based on specific usage of terms.

But couldn't someone just use a different term like "Jelly beans" for Hit Points -- when your Jelly Bean score reaches 0, you're dying.

Would that be infringement?
_________________
Big Iron Vault Your friendly neighbourhood gaming magazine. Check out our new webcomic, The Heindrich Project!

[gideon_thorne]

angelius wrote:
I hear ya. So really its based on specific usage of terms.

But couldn't someone just use a different term like "Jelly beans" for Hit Points -- when your Jelly Bean score reaches 0, you're dying.

Would that be infringement?

Best to consult an actual attorney who specialises in such things. Any posts on these forums by non attorney types are a matter of opinion.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

[serleran]

One good resource, if interested, would be the Tome of Horrors (maybe the 2nd one) where Orcus (an attorney, though not a copyright specialist) provided good examples on how to use the OGL. But, it would be best to speak to someone who does it for a living, to make sure you have the best advice.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[angelius]

I do know that you cannot trademark an method such as using hit points to represent health. But you can certainly mark terms etc and their use.
_________________
Big Iron Vault Your friendly neighbourhood gaming magazine. Check out our new webcomic, The Heindrich Project!

[DangerDwarf]

And I think that overall presentation has a lot to do with it too. OGL games are't the only ones that use HP's, certain class names or elves and what not.

[Philotomy Jurament]

I agree with the up-thread advice about consulting an attorney. That said, here's my take. I'm assuming that you want to use an existing system, or create material that is closely related to an existing system.

First, you can consider publishing without any license at all. If you're presenting creative material that does not use any trademarks, patents, or copyrights of another company, you're fine. You can even claim compatibility with other companies' trademarks, as long as you abide by the laws. For example, Kenzerco released the 4e version of Kingdoms of Kalamar without using the GSL or the OGL, and they claimed compatibility with "Fourth Edition Dungeons & Dragons" right on the cover. However, the more "crunch" you use, the more uncertain this approach becomes. Also, note that David Kenzer is a lawyer -- and an IP lawyer, at that.

As I mentioned, the main problem is crunch. The more game terms you use, and use together, the cloudier the waters on what is and is not copyright infringement. In the past, some writers and publishers have worked around this potential issue by coming up with alternate (but compatible) naming systems ("hits to kill" instead of "hit points" and such). Usually, this approach is seen as less than ideal.

The OGL offers the possibility to legally use the familiar and common terms; they have been released as open content, so by adopting the OGL you are using them with permission. Furthermore, the OGL gives you permission to change the exact definition of the terms. This is what allows games like Castles & Crusades or Mutants & Masterminds to use d20 SRD terminology (which is all open content) along with rules that vary from the d20 SRD definitions. The OGL is often criticized for adding restrictions that don't exist under normal IP laws, but by explicitly granting permission to use and modify open content it has the benefit of removing a lot of uncertainty and making the waters much clearer.

When you use the OGL, you need to be careful to abide by its terms. You can't claim compatibility with "product identity" trademarks, must avoid the use or distribution of "product identity," et cetera.

If you plan on using any open content that you think might be considered copyrighted material, you would probably want to consider using the OGL. But again, your best bet is to take the specifics to an attorney who specializes in IP law.
_________________
http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

[Treebore]

angelius wrote:
I do know that you cannot trademark an method such as using hit points to represent health. But you can certainly mark terms etc and their use.

Your confusing Trademark and Copyright, they are very different things.

I suggest if your going to consult an attorney that you read the US copyright laws, and Trademark laws, they are free to google at any time. Then go talk to a lawyer. Your going to be paying the person a rediculous amount of money per hour, so make sure you ask darn good questions and comprehend the subject well enough to understand their answers as well as possible.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[Wasgo]

There is a great deal of debate whether or not the OGL is necessary to use at all, for making compatible products. Terms like hit points aren't protected by trademark, and their mechanics aren't protected at all. However, it's important to recognize that the law isn't static and it may be more important to protect yourself from legal action than it is to protect your full rights. If you want to take a broad view as to your rights, definitely consult a lawyer, as the likelihood of legal action is significantly increased.

[Philotomy Jurament]

Wasgo wrote:
There is a great deal of debate whether or not the OGL is necessary to use at all, for making compatible products. Terms like hit points aren't protected by trademark, and their mechanics aren't protected at all. However, it's important to recognize that the law isn't static and it may be more important to protect yourself from legal action than it is to protect your full rights.

Right. The problem looms when you start using many such games terms in together in combination. Somewhere, there is a line between "similar, but not infringing presentation" and "infringing presentation." Exactly where that line is drawn is not well-defined. By adopting the OGL, you give up some rights you would have, otherwise, but it removes a lot of the uncertainty.
_________________
http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log