NECROMANCER GAMES IS ALIVE!! Sort of....

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:34 pm

Pale Writer up on these Troll Boards. Fascinating!

~O
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:07 pm

Joe wrote:
I will never understand the "conversion" issue. I have used old school, 3.x, C&C products without any issues and I never had to "convert" anything.

It is less conversion and more; if you are not bothering to publish for a system I play I am not bothering to buy your product.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:18 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
It is less conversion and more; if you are not bothering to publish for a system I play I am not bothering to buy your product.

I need to set parameters like that, I even feel like I spend way too much money on RPG stuff.

Plus it doesn't help that I game with guys who keep telling me about this and that super cool RPG I have yet to buy.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:43 pm

Pale Writer wrote:
Printing copies of a hard-bound book costs money. If it were easy, I'm sure that everyone would be doing it.

It is easy. But, it is expensive to do it alone because of the cost needed to buy the machine(s) needed to do it properly, depending what kind of binding you want -- perfect is cheaper than library, for example. But, I can tell you this: having the book binder opens all kinds of possibilities... I love playing with the one I bought, though I find it much harder to get the book into printable form than to print / bind it.

I can certainly understand the desire to raise money to do the printing (it is not cheap), but am not sure the subscription service is the way to do it. If it works, then great... NG stuff has classically been interesting and somewhat darker than the average adventure, so it's got potential. I won't say I won't buy it, ever... but I'll probably wait a while to get it.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:09 pm

Serl...are you saying you own a printing machine that can make hardbound books?

When you first mentioned it I pictured some spiral binding thing in your garage.

Talk to me brutha from anutha mutha.
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Pale Writer · Post by **Pale Writer** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:15 pm

You're also leaving out the bits about finding artists, a cartographer, the raw writing, layout, typesetting, editing, transferring everything into a precise layout that the printer wants, turning all of that into a PDF. (not too hard on the .PDF front, I'll grant you that ) Then there's the book binding on a mass scale.

It's also not fair to compare the price to books printed 10 years ago (I've seen people doing it) because the cost of ink and paper have gone up quite a bit since 9/11 2001. That is not an insignificant factor in the print industry.

Let me also say this: I do not like PDF format for books. I LOVE books. The heft, the feel, the sound they make when you tap on them with your fingers, the new-book smell. I love my dead-tree editions. . . However, Slumbering Tsar needs to see the light of day, and this is the best way to get it out there for every. If it takes me making 100 different layouts of this book to get it out there and make everyone happy, I'll do it, no problem.

I think that there's quite a bit of great stuff that still needs to see release and if this is the best way to get it out there . . . so be it!

I just . . . *sniff* . . . I just want to give every GM out there the chance to be really evil.

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:17 pm

Treebore wrote:
I need to set parameters like that, I even feel like I spend way too much money on RPG stuff.

Plus it doesn't help that I game with guys who keep telling me about this and that super cool RPG I have yet to buy.

I'm getting set in my ways, lol.

Truth is, my time for gaming is getting limited enough for only about two systems. I have S&W/OD&D for one shots, pick-ups and wanting a DIY feel and C&C for campaigning and when I can run more long term games. I may get the full LA books for when I want skill based.

As it is now I am boxing and liquidating things I no longer use nor have interest in (Like d20) and focusing more on interest and what I have time for.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:21 pm

Joe wrote:
Serl...are you saying you own a printing machine that can make hardbound books?

Yes. More accurately, I own a book binder that can do all kinds of neat stuff.

Pale Writer wrote:
It's also not fair to compare the price to books printed 10 years ago (I've seen people doing it) because the cost of ink and paper have gone up quite a bit since 9/11 2001. That is not an insignificant factor in the print industry.

I'm not. Pricing for various things is variable. Art can be cheap, and it can be very good... depending on who you get and what you want. There are a few people I have found that are extraordinarily artistic and very reasonable when it comes to prices. I'm not looking to pay $5k for a Frazetta cover. I don't need one.

But, we are somewhat discussing apples to oranges... I'm not trying to print 1000s of books. I'd be happy selling 10. I got into this because it was a dream, a hobby... it is not a life. Those with other goals have other concerns that I can ignore.

In any event, it is good to see NG back in the printing scheme. Maybe they'll do that book of those extraplanar lords of pain. I'd buy that.
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:26 pm

Omote wrote:
Pale Writer up on these Troll Boards. Fascinating!

~O

I guess he did not like the gimmick comment.
I have been subjected to both gimmicks and strategies and ironically left feeling the same.

I just want hard bound books. I bought the Incincible Overlord book and the Wilderlands box. I will promptly buy much of necromancers stuff as they are a preferred publisher in my opinion but I do not plan to subscribe to any book of the month club deal.

maybe once treebore buys 5 copies of each and vouches for it's quality, but then would it be too late?

Give me classic modules, hardbound tomes, real metal minis, and a sweet young wench and I am happy as a pig in well you know. Shoot, I even prefer real cheese over processed cheese food subsitute, but I'm crazy that way.

Make any sort of move that ends up with gaudy covers, revisions that make my purchases obsolete, or excuses to charge me more money than I am comfortable with and I'll just sell my soul to those 3 big companies.

I understand when a company needs to boost bottom line. I also understand when a company "strategizes" their marketing formula that alienates me as a long time loyal customer.

We have seen it time and time again with D&D, WFRP, and to a certain extent, our favorite gaming society.

I will reserve judgement for now.

But still if bottom line is what your looking for...a subcription I don't spend money on compared to a hardbound I do.

Which would a company prefer?
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:32 pm

Pale Writer wrote:
You're also leaving out the bits about finding artists, a cartographer, the raw writing, layout, typesetting, editing, transferring everything into a precise layout that the printer wants, turning all of that into a PDF. (not too hard on the .PDF front, I'll grant you that ) Then there's the book binding on a mass scale.

I think that there's quite a bit of great stuff that still needs to see release and if this is the best way to get it out there . . . so be it!

I just . . . *sniff* . . . I just want to give every GM out there the chance to be really evil.

Actually I am up to my ears in just what you mention. I wish I could forget about all that.
But your argument is a good one and I am empathetic to your plight.

You just want to release a cool product. I hear you loud and clear!

Ok, I'll give it a chance. But just this once.

Where do I sign up?
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Pale Writer · Post by **Pale Writer** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:19 pm

wwwDOTfroggodgamesDOTcom when Bill gets it up and running. That address won't work yet. Hopefully next week as the first installment is due out May 15.

And yes, Joe, the word "gimmick" nailed me.

Pale Writer · Post by **Pale Writer** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:22 pm

serleran wrote:
I'm not. Pricing for various things is variable. Art can be cheap, and it can be very good... depending on who you get and what you want. There are a few people I have found that are extraordinarily artistic and very reasonable when it comes to prices. I'm not looking to pay $5k for a Frazetta cover. I don't need one.

Oh, I know that you weren't complaining about pricing, I was just trying to nip that one in the bud.
It was still wicked awesome that Bill and Clark got that Frazetta cover. :p

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:00 am

Joe wrote:
I guess he did not like the gimmick comment.
I have been subjected to both gimmicks and strategies and ironically left feeling the same.

I just want hard bound books. I bought the Incincible Overlord book and the Wilderlands box. I will promptly buy much of necromancers stuff as they are a preferred publisher in my opinion but I do not plan to subscribe to any book of the month club deal.

maybe once treebore buys 5 copies of each and vouches for it's quality, but then would it be too late?

Give me classic modules, hardbound tomes, real metal minis, and a sweet young wench and I am happy as a pig in well you know. Shoot, I even prefer real cheese over processed cheese food subsitute, but I'm crazy that way.

Make any sort of move that ends up with gaudy covers, revisions that make my purchases obsolete, or excuses to charge me more money than I am comfortable with and I'll just sell my soul to those 3 big companies.

I understand when a company needs to boost bottom line. I also understand when a company "strategizes" their marketing formula that alienates me as a long time loyal customer.

We have seen it time and time again with D&D, WFRP, and to a certain extent, our favorite gaming society.

I will reserve judgement for now.

But still if bottom line is what your looking for...a subcription I don't spend money on compared to a hardbound I do.

Which would a company prefer?

I do not buy 5 copies, I buy 3. One for each of my kids.
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froggie · Post by **froggie** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:59 pm

any questions; let me know on Necro boards--truly its not much left over cash at $125--besides, this thing is huge (and really 14 module sized books, not 1)..thought of in that light, its about $8/book, with an option to get it all bound into one huge hardcover.

I'll look into individual module size books as PODs at say $14 each (or maybe $4 each from DTRPG if you own subscription but forego the hardcover and want a module library style instead--have to look into that, but as you guys know, I am happy to accommodate individual needs/wants desires, in most cases:)

Bill

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:42 pm

Bill, just get this amazing work out. However it needs to happen.

~O
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Pale Writer · Post by **Pale Writer** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:33 am

Frog God Games site is up! Can't order anything yet as Bill is still ironing out all of the details on that front.
www.talesofthefroggod.com

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 05, 2010 1:34 pm

Wow, BW doesn't hold anything back, does he? Haha I think he's going to push away some of the new-generation-everything-must-be-mathematically-balanced type gamers... and I completely applaud him!

~O
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed May 05, 2010 1:55 pm

Omote wrote:
Wow, BW doesn't hold anything back, does he? Haha I think he's going to push away some of the new-generation-everything-must-be-mathematically-balanced type gamers... and I completely applaud him!

~O

Roger that. His posture will turn off some gamers but I suspect it will solidify his grasp on his target audience of old schoolers.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 05, 2010 2:23 pm

Old-schoolers playing Pathfinder?!?! Man, it's crazy to see those words in the same sentance.

OH EM GEE, 3.5/Pathfinder is now Old-School...
~O
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:11 pm

I wonder when they will figure out they are using the wrong system to attract 'old-schoolers'.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:19 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
I wonder when they will figure out they are using the wrong system to attract 'old-schoolers'.

They're going where the money is, I suspect. It's a business decision and I understand it. I would certainly prefer they use an ACTUAL old school system, but a brother's gotta eat, eh?

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:20 pm

True, dat. But I don't have to like it or buy I guess. I am just trying to let them know they are barking up the wrong tree to get some of us interested.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Wed May 05, 2010 3:24 pm

I think once a new system is put into effect those playing the old must be considered "old-school".
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:11 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
True, dat. But I don't have to like it or buy I guess. I am just trying to let them know they are barking up the wrong tree to get some of us interested.

Indeed, it is probably just a numbers game. I suspect that the newest version of the D&D game is not very D&D to Bill Webb, and since Necromancer was publishing for 3E, they decided to go that route. The Pathfinder way most likely has a lot more fans with purchsing potential than the OSR guys.

~O
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:22 pm

I wasn't really thinking OSR, more along the lines of C&C or the upcoming DCC game. You are probably right though about the reasoning behind choosing PF. I just wish they'd throw a bone our way instead of saying 'Look at our shiny new product for a different system' and expect us to buy it. Stuff like that makes me feel like our system isn't important to them.
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Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:27 pm

Omote wrote:
Indeed, it is probably just a numbers game. I suspect that the newest version of the D&D game is not very D&D to Bill Webb, and since Necromancer was publishing for 3E, they decided to go that route. The Pathfinder way most likely has a lot more fans with purchsing potential than the OSR guys.

~O

No evidence aside from anecdotal, but I'd be willing to bet that if you combine the PF crowd with the never-left-3.xe D&D crowd, you'd find a larger pool of consumers than even the 4th edition crowd. I could be wrong, of course

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 05, 2010 6:31 pm

Breakdaddy wrote:
No evidence aside from anecdotal, but I'd be willing to bet that if you combine the PF crowd with the never-left-3.xe D&D crowd, you'd find a larger pool of consumers than even the 4th edition crowd. I could be wrong, of course

I'll place my bets with you.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:08 pm

Hell, if FGG let me re-convert this Slumbering Tsar project back to 1E (C&C, OSR, etc), Damn, I'd do it for free!

~O
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:12 pm

Omote wrote:
Hell, if FGG let me re-convert this Slumbering Tsar project back to 1E (C&C, OSR, etc), Damn, I'd do it for free!

~O

Since we will be working from PDF's, I'll help.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed May 05, 2010 7:25 pm

Haha, Tree. Niiice. Though I would only work on a project like that if it became offical in some way. The reason is that for me personally, I don't really need to convert much. I'll just read directly off the .pdf to run in C&C, D&D, or any OSR game.

But officially, hellz yeah!

~O
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Troll Lord Games

NECROMANCER GAMES IS ALIVE!! Sort of....

Hey guys

It's alive! ALIVE!