Troll Lord Games

Hello folks,

I'm going over the Magic chapter at the moment. Shortly I will be on the spell section, a sort of q/a on spells that may need further explanation. I have a bundle of them I discuss but thought it would be nice for you to post spells that you have questions about, or that have caused problems, whether from confused wording, or hard to interpret, etc. in your games. Any spells and said problem you can think of please list here. I should be at that section by Thursday (assuming the apocalypse doesn't come).
Thanks,

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

A further, maybe even more detailed description of illusions might be in order. The jump to including illusionist spells as healing has been discussed since the 4th printing. Does a save have to be made in reagards to illusionist spells (since the PHB says that any save can be intentionally failed?) Is there other reasons for illusionist healing above and beyond mind over matter? Perhaps illusions are part of a quasi-real, tangible force made of shadow stuff.

Perhaps include information on adjudicating Wishes. Consequences, more suggest limits, etc. Yeah, we've all seen this information before in other games but to make C&C complete, more of this info could be included.

How about some additional info on spell components? The purpose, use and how they affect spells as they are cast? Casting without spell components, etc.

Do reversible spells need to be memorized sperately? Are reversible spells different from the base spell? Does a spell caster who knows a reversible spell automatically know both versions of the spell?

Why does Heat Metal cripple creatures with higher CON scores than lower ones (I know this has been submitted as eratta at least 2 times) and it's never changed! I don't get it!
Can the "Dragon" Illusionist spells (Dragon Armor, Dragon Bit, Dragon Breat, etc) be changed to creatures other than dragons by the spellcaster?

Just some thoughts.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

I wouldnt mind seeing a variant of the illusionist heal spells that just works, maybe at a reduced level but that doesnt require any sort of check or roll in order to function. I could easily see reducing cure light to 1d6, cure serious to 2d8, and cure critical to 3d8 or whatever. I just really hate that it could fail altogether. Oh also, what Omote said about the illusions and whatnot.

Along the same lines of the above two gentlemen, would there be any way to include variants to illusionist healing. I know it's a dawning of a new age (), but I still like my illusionists not healing. I've already substituted the healing spells in my games, so I'm happy, but something more official would be awesome (even though it's in the CKG - a book of optional rules ). Something that I've done is use Temporary HP spells (False Life from the 3.x era).

I've changed out the healing spells for False Life spells of various power (I also removed Neutralize Poison and Heal for Greater Invisibility and Superior Invisibility, respectively). I've added the False Life(s) to the Illusion school (as well as Necromancy, which it currently belongs, in 3.x). These are all "illusionist only" spells (and are subject to change) ay the present time.

I don't know...just something to think about, boss man.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Gentlemen? Well!

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Hey, now...you don't give yourself enough credit!
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

continual flame

Clarifications of spells that do not work against certain types of creatures, if any. For example, can sleep be used to drop a 4 HD elemental or does it work on a skeleton?
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Serl's Corner

Phantasmal Killer, duration as listed or instant effect as some can extract from the text of the spell? Where does the killer materialize at in distance from target? Does it only get one attack attempt then dissapear?

See post here -> http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

serleran wrote:
Clarifications of spells that do not work against certain types of creatures, if any. For example, can sleep be used to drop a 4 HD elemental or does it work on a skeleton?

This. A lot.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Duration clarification for the druid spell, Magic Stones. No duration is mention in the spell description.

R-
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Rigon o' the Lakelands, Baron of The Castles & Crusades Society
The Book of the Mind

Can you use a Floating Disk as a method of transportation?
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http://www.eclipsephase.com/online-game-friday-nights

I would start by opening the AD&D DMG and looking at what Gary clarified, and then deciding if that is how C&C wants to view things (such as, specifically, floating disc cannot be used to carry the caster) or not. Another thing I would really like to see is how invisibility works... and whether very smart things can render illusions ineffectual.

Strange I was looking in there for this exact thing last night.
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Serl's Corner

Lord Dynel wrote:
I know it's a dawning of a new age (), but I still like my illusionists not healing. I've already substituted the healing spells in my games, so I'm happy, but something more official would be awesome (even though it's in the CKG - a book of optional rules ). Something that I've done is use Temporary HP spells (False Life from the 3.x era).

I've replaced it as well in my game.
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When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)

Society Member: http://www.cncsociety.org/

Steve. The following are some items that I have House Ruled in my game. Feel free to inquire into any of them, or ignore. They may be for clarity, or a change to btb rules:

1. Increase of 1 prime attribute score / 3 effect character levels (ECL)

2.Death warrents xp/level loss and not a point of Con

3. Increase number of available classes.

4. Improved weapon specialization for fighters.

5. Divine/Arcane Blast (like in 4e)

6. Attribute modifiers from magic items in m&t cleaned up (table and item description)

7. Concentrating while spellcasting

8. More difficult overcasting check.

9. Area of Effect for undead turning.

10. Spell Resistance

11. Bard variant or return of bardic music (spells) similiar to Monte Cooks work

12. Rewrite the effects of the haste spell, during and after.

13. Con check after using Boots of Speed

14. Arcane spellcasters and armor

15.Include small number of Paladin spells and their own spell-list

16. Explanation of what items/spells stacks for AC.

You can go here if you want more details on them: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Again, you can ignore if its not what you are looking for. I am sure there are lots more that we have discovered in our game which is getting up in levels.

Rob.
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When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)

Society Member: http://www.cncsociety.org/

How 'bout how various spells, especially attack spells work under water?
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Sir Dachda McKinty,

Margrave and Knight of Portlandia
Castles & Crusades Society

Could we perhaps have a nerf to Phantasmal Killer? A 4th level spell that can kill on a failed saving throw is a little too powerful.

garydee wrote:
Could we perhaps have a nerf to Phantasmal Killer? A 4th level spell that can kill on a failed saving throw is a little too powerful.

But, but, its always been that way!
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Sleep is a level one spell that gives no save and virtually guarantees death unless you're 4th+ level. So, a 4th level spell that allows a save (and affects but a single target) is no big deal. Hell, fireball is lower level and gives a save but even if you make it, you still take half damage (which could still kill you)... and there's no cap (plus it hits a whole area, each level making it hurt more people)! Nerf one spell, nerf them all. Spells are powerful. The fact that the majority of illusionist spells suck until the 4th+ level ones is testament to PK being exactly where it needs to be. However, I would argue that they (illusionists) should get polymorph earlier than they do, but that's because I think the class is fairly weak as a whole (some few spells are great.)

These things, I don't believe the CKG needs to address... but, if so, maybe a "spell design guide" would be better served.
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Serl's Corner

I don't have any issues, problems or requirements with regard to the CKG.

But, I do have a suggestion . . . perhaps a Spartan 300 CKGs signed & numbered by the Trolls ~ at a slightly higher cost. I'd buy a couple.

[Of course, my great idea and suggestion should garner me the very first copy]

[Aside ~ Davis knows that I have copy 301 of the C&C Collector's Box. I must remember to get it signed by all the Trolls for thee very best TLG collector item]

Alea Iacta Est - The die is cast!

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Omote wrote:
A further, maybe even more detailed description of illusions might be in order. Does a save have to be made in reagards to illusionist spells (since the PHB says that any save can be intentionally failed?)

+1 to this. As written, illusion spells are incredibly powerful, because anyone can intentionally fail their save. For example, "A bridge, though illusionary, is real to the one crossing it" (PHB p50). So the party comes to a chasm. The illusionist casts an illusionary bridge (with a 1st level spell, no less). The entire party "fails" their save. Poof! the bridge is real (to them). They cross over the chasm.

Perhaps a modification so that illusion saves cannot be intentionally failed?

ssfsx17 wrote:
Can you use a Floating Disk as a method of transportation?

Semi-related: does levitate/fly only allow for vertical movement, or does it effectively reduce weight to 0?

What the heck is a plane, generally? I'm thinking its a magical semi-related dimension, but there's no manual of the planes or anything. They show up a lot in spells, and I think I have a pretty good idea, but what effect should a trip through the 'plane of shadows' or the 'ethereal plane' have on casting?

Polymorph is generally confusing. I can change you into a toad forever, but I can only be a bear for a little while, and I can't use both of my claws? I know the mechanical why (it would be unfun), but a little rationalizing would be neat.

The Banishment spell indicates special objects or substances that extraplanar creatures hate/fear/oppose. These objects are not described or suggestions given. Perhaps in the CKG, these types of things can be described. A listing like this can serve as clarity to the spell as well as being an idea generator for adventures.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Can unconscious characters make saving throws?

The various illusionist healing spells repair HP damage. In many cases a PC will be unconscious when this healing is administered. Can unconscious characters even attempt a saving throw that can heal damage? Even greater than this subject, can any unconscious character make a saving throw?

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Summon Familiar - This spell also indicates that additional materials/spell components can be used to potentially modify the type of familiar summoned. The details on what the materials/components are is not given. Perhaps, as noted in the Banishment spell above, a list of materials can be given with a suggested modifier for the summon familiar spell. This list can have many spell casting benefits, but also may help a CK come up with adventure ideas all based on the summon familiar spell.

Perhaps suggest additional standard or special familars that can be summoned with this spell and the benefits gained from them.

There is still no way to specifically roll a celestial or fiendish creature according to the Summon Familiar charts.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[quote="dunbruha"]

As written, illusion spells are incredibly powerful, because anyone can intentionally fail their save. For example, "A bridge, though illusionary, is real to the one crossing it" (PHB p50). So the party comes to a chasm. The illusionist casts an illusionary bridge (with a 1st level spell, no less). The entire party "fails" their save. Poof! the bridge is real (to them). They cross over the chasm.[/quote]

Discussions applying to this very type of example were addressed in the early days of 1e. The party believes the bridge is real, but if they try walking on it, they still fell into the chasm it was supposedly bridging. If a pit in the floor was believed, they "fell" into it, but to those who did not believe the pit, their companion was flailing away on the floor, possibly screaming, then believing themselves to suffer the effects of impact as they "hit bottom", yet having no physical signs of the injuries but to themselves.

To say that just believing an illusion of a bridge makes it physically real or that a pit becomes actuality, displacing real matter is, IMO, malarky. It's going to be a CK call in the end anyhow, so further discussion of it will be meaningful to only a handful.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

A clarification on how spells affecting Ability scores affect monsters.

Like:

How does Enhance Strength affect monsters?

How does Con Loss affect monsters?

Maybe this should go in the chapter on monsters, yet it is a problem mostly caused by magic.
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You should have caught us in better times. We were purists then.

artikid wrote:
A clarification on how spells affecting Ability scores affect monsters.

Like:

How does Enhance Strength affect monsters?

How does Con Loss affect monsters?

Maybe this should go in the chapter on monsters, yet it is a problem mostly caused by magic.

If their ability scores were give in the m&t, you could modify it up or down. Its what I do.

Since they (TLG) don't include them, I use the ones given in the MM 3.5

L.S.
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When All of your wishes have been granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed" -- M.Manson (Man That You Fear)

Society Member: http://www.cncsociety.org/

I think illusions need a LOT of clarification.

I personally can't stand illusionary healing UNLESS the recipient has no idea the caster is an illusionist. Once someone knows that a caster is an illusionist, they aren't going to believe ANYTHING that the caster produces, including healing.

This idea that they can fail a save and believe it is bunk. Once they know the caster produces illusions, they don't work anymore on those people, period.

This is why illusions are so powerful - because most of the entities on the receiving end won't know they are illusions - because they don't know the caster!

This whole illusion idea really breaks up plausibility to me, and it needs serious clarification. I cannot stomach the concept that my fighter knows Bobo is an illusionist, yet will "play stupid" just so the healing actually works on him.

It's nonsense.

You know why horror movies with terrible imagery don't have lasting traumatic effects once we leave the theater? Because we know they are FAKE.

The same goes for illusionists. Once it is known they are fake, even on the most subliminal level - THEY DON'T WORK ANYMORE.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

LordSeurek wrote:
If their ability scores were give in the m&t, you could modify it up or down. Its what I do.

Since they (TLG) don't include them, I use the ones given in the MM 3.5

L.S.

Here's an even simpler solution...

If there is a temporary boost or loss to the physical stats, just apply them as straight bonuses or penalties. It gives monsters an edge but not one that would create a huge imbalance IMO.

I do agree that a couple of guidelines could be provided in this regards. Sometimes the simplest solution is the easiest but it is also one that might be overlooked often enough.

M
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