Troll Lord Games

Let's say you have a once in a lifetime chance to look upon Truth in it's entirety.

lets say there is a booth and the guy is selling a glimpse at Truth.

Yet, when you looked into it, your existing beleifs, your foundation in reality, your faith in the divine, even the nature of your self, all these things you hold close and dear were revealed as a lie what would you do?

You are not the person you thought you were.

The universe does not operate as science and everyone told you it did.

All you learned in school was a farce.

All you think about yourself is a delusion.

Even your marriage is called into question.

Then you learn that to follow this truth will place you at odds with the entire world. you will be cast out from social circle and your family if you were to embrace what you have learned.

Would you embrace this Truth or would you take the path that brings you back to the comfort and security of the life that you knew, even if deep down inside you knew it was not real?

Please think about my question before you answer and please try...try to answer honestly.

I suspect we get a chance to peek into that booth more often than we think. I also suspect that we go right back to our existence as if nothing happened.

That was an interesting dream...

What a crazy thought...

Well yeah dude...everyone knows that.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

To look upon truth is to embrace madness...for the stark totality of it would strip away all of that comforting ignorance of things we really don't want to know about in the first place.

So...as tempting as it might be...I'll have to pass. Even if it does mean passing up my chance to get an FTL drive and off this rock.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Sounds like someone has been, or might enjoy reading Tolstoy.

"One man does not assert the truth which he knows, because he feels himself bound to the people with whom he is engaged; another, because the truth might deprive him of the profitable position by which he maintains his family; a third, because he desires to attain reputation and authority, and then use them in the service of mankind; a fourth, because he does not wish to destroy old sacred traditions; a fifth, because he has no desire to offend people; a sixth, because the expression of the truth would arouse persecution, and disturb the excellent social activity to which he has devoted himself."

And again.

"I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to their colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven,thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."

I am not a believer in everything in this article but it is an interesting discussion of a man (Tolstoy) considering a few of the same conundrums you have put forth
http://www.aroadhome.org/c4a20_en.html

Truth is as non-existent as the opinions there are about truth.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Well, I am a "big-picture" guy.
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John Adams

I'd break the hell out of that window.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

"What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me, is true for me. Truth is subjective."

I think if we really were able to see the Truth, we would discard it as farce and return to what we already have preceived to be "true." It is human nature.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

I'd probably go and have a Snickers...
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html

It's impossible for everything I know to be a lie. I'm never wrong!
Honest answer? I'd have a lot to think about and I wonder if this knowledge would give me super powers . . .

Another thing to consider here is that there is one truth for every individual. The truth is a very fluid thing based on perception and very faulty memory systems (the human brain) which will fill in gaps in the memory with assumptions based on past experiences. The truth, I believe, is that there is no truth. Just a bunch of best guesses.

Of course, that will be proven wrong once I look in that window.

*sigh*

Pale Writer wrote:
Another thing to consider here is that there is one truth for every individual. The truth is a very fluid thing based on perception and very faulty memory systems (the human brain) which will fill in gaps in the memory with assumptions based on past experiences. The truth, I believe, is that there is no truth. Just a bunch of best guesses.

Of course, that will be proven wrong once I look in that window.

*sigh*

Very deep, man...very deep.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Deogolf wrote:
I'd probably go and have a Snickers...

Here here, my good man! (Or is tr 'Hear hear'?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhEQ066WDAA
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kim@trolllord.com

Click here: http://tiny.cc/4rvo5

Usually, it should be hear, hear, if you're agreeing with someone... here, here would be if you want someone to come to where you're at, which is kind of agreeing on a message board... like "look at this post."
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

I find it interesting how many people seem to think that truth is subject to your own personal bias and perspectives.

Lets not forget the blind men describing the elephant.

One felt the leg and said it was like a tree trunk, another felt the trunk and said it was like a snake, while another felt it's side and said it was like a tall wall. None of them were "wrong" in their own personal realm of perception, but not one of them had a clue as to the Truth of the elephant.

Under your premise, your telling me that the elephant is subject to the blind men rather than the blind men simply not having all the facts in order to perceive the elephant as it truly is.

It's almost as if regardless of who peers into the window and who does not, you still intend to warp it to fit your perceptions.

Might as well just keep walking past if thats the case. Don't you think?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Joe wrote:
It's almost as if regardless of who peers into the window and who does not, you still intend to warp it to fit your perceptions.

Might as well just keep walking past if thats the case. Don't you think?

Actually, yes, I do think. Many people believe that "perception is reality." Are they wrong? If two people can perceive the same thing differently (the glass half full/empty), why can't that same thing be Truth?
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Joe wrote:
I find it interesting how many people seem to think that truth is subject to your own personal bias and perspectives.

Lets not forget the blind men describing the elephant.

One felt the leg and said it was like a tree trunk, another felt the trunk and said it was like a snake, while another felt it's side and said it was like a tall wall. None of them were "wrong" in their own personal realm of perception, but not one of them had a clue as to the Truth of the elephant.

Under your premise, your telling me that the elephant is subject to the blind men rather than the blind men simply not having all the facts in order to perceive the elephant as it truly is.

It's almost as if regardless of who peers into the window and who does not, you still intend to warp it to fit your perceptions.

Might as well just keep walking past if thats the case. Don't you think?

Are you not imposing your view of Truth by denying that perception may well be the definition of it. And, that is the problem... semantics. What are you deciding "truth" means?
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Thats my whole point exactly! I have not decided anything about truth yet. Why should i have or why would anyone think I have?

I simply asked the question if folks would make an effort to change according to the truth they found or bother to peer into the window at all.

When I look up the definition of perception it has no mention of truth.

1 a : a result of perceiving : observation b : a mental image : concept

2 obsolete : consciousness

3 a : awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation b : physical sensation interpreted in the light of experience

4 a : quick, acute, and intuitive cognition :

I am just a bit confused as to how perception or personal subjectivity and truth are related.

Truth: 1 a archaic : fidelity, constancy b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance

2 a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true c : the body of true statements and propositions

3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : true 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard

When we are talking about a THING, are we talking about the actual thing or rather are we more often talking about what we think about the thing?

Are those not two different topics entirely?

I don't claim to have any grasp of truth except that it has proven to elude my capability to define. i will leave that to Merriam Webster.

Yet still, I fail to see the connection between subjectivity and Truth.

Should i dare to speculate that the existence of one would cancel the other perhaps?

If I were to express that somehow truth was subject to my own perceptions, then that would imply I have some sort of dominion over it, would it not?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Because there is the idea that perception is reality, reality being what people generally accept to be true. What we see, or fail to see, is perceived by humans to be True. Think about the "Magic Eye" puzzles. Our perception, at first, is a bunch of squiggly lines. That is the truth. But, hidden amongst the squiggly lines, is a three-dimensional picture. So are brains perceive that as true. From then on, we will see that 3-D image in the squiggly picture.

But, in the end, is there really a three dimensional picture at all?

Quote:
If I were to express that somehow truth was subject to my own perceptions, then that would imply I have some sort of dominion over it, would it not?

You're absolutely correct. That's what I've been saying the whole time, and something I believe in. Only when we, as human, can be proven irrevocably incorrect will we cease to believe something as true. And even then that's not always the case.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Because there is the idea that perception is reality, reality being what people generally accept to be true. What we see, or fail to see, is perceived by humans to be True.

That idea does seem to permeate thought.
So do those same people think that David Copperfield really saws women in half?
Perhaps in a subjective universe it would all depend on the person.

I don't know if I will ever find truth but I find it worthy to ponder.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

Nobody needs a magic window to see the truth; just keep your eyes open. Reality is. The only negotiable part of it is what we make of what it is.

There folks go again putting eyes, and visual perceptions in the same context as Truth yet charlatans and entertainers are proof that the eyes are not to be trusted to interpret truth.

I agree that truth simply is, but I suspect it requires us to open our minds to perceive rather than our eyes...don't you think?

I also hesitate to interchange reality and truth as synonyms.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim

'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell

To be honest, I wouldn't look.

I don't think it would pay. There are a lot of things I'd rather not know. I learned that while being in the service.

But, it would be fun to put a politician behind one and watch him squirm!!
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Eulaliaaa!!! Give those rapscallions blood and vinegar, wot?!

Be sure to check out Jim's artwork for sale:
http://jimhollowayart.com/id5.html