Troll Lord Games

Yeah, the new Hackmaster is taking a long time to get together. In fact the group I play with on Wed. is play testing for Advanced, in particular the rules for above 5th level play. The monster book for Advanced, which also works for basic should be out in April. They hope to have the players book out before the year ends, but I find that doubtful. The cool thing is knowing it will get some intensive play testing up to 20th level. Something I think most other RPG's have never gotten until AFTER publication.

Treebore wrote:Something I think most other RPG's have never gotten until AFTER publication.

Too true, but certainly not the case for the CKG character levels 13-24!

~O

Omote wrote:

Treebore wrote:Something I think most other RPG's have never gotten until AFTER publication.

Too true, but certainly not the case for the CKG character levels 13-24!

~O

Well, that is good to know. Not that I really care about that with something like the CKG, I have ran two games above 9th level so far with C&C, one had PC's up to 14th level, and the other has PC's of up to 18th level.

So when I look at something like the CKG I will already have a good idea of what will or will not work for my games at those level ranges.

Plus the Trolls make it pretty clear the rules are only really good for up to level 9, and beyond that is very free form.

So it will be interesting to see what they offer as the full rules for higher level play, and see if I agree with those rules. Since I have seen the preview rules for these levels, I am pretty sure I will largely use them, but there will be some things I will modify.

The best example of not being thoroughly play tested is the 3E rules for high level play, the worst being their rules for Epic level play. I played two games that went well into the Epic level range, and we ignored and altered probably about 60% of the rules in that book to make the game playable at those levels. So I completely understood why people posted about how that book was worthless. We had to do a lot of rewrites to make it work. Reminded me of my RIFTS days.

I pretty much hate Pictionary and freeze tag.

In order played or read:

Rollmaster, just way too cumbersome. As said above, MERP was also cumbersome, but at least playable.

Heroes Unlimited, or any Palladium game. The fact that you need the rules from virtually every Palladium game to get the complete rules, and then you have to work out the contradictions, makes this unplayable. Not to mention that the 'unlimited' heroes are pretty limited (when having an UZI is more effective than most powers, it's just gun play in costume).

D$D 4E, the one game on my list I never actually played. I read through the PHB (and HASBeens plans for the game [PHB2, 3, 4, etc]) and decided it wasn't D&D to me.

Recently?

Any game that takes a month to arrive.

I'm just glad I have so much spare time in my life to wait forever for a freaking book!

It's kind of like ordering eggs over medium...waiting forever...and getting some slimy nasty thing I can't even gag down.
Actually it's nothing like that but happens to have both happened to me lately and is also irritating.

I don't believe in sending food back after watching the movie Waiting.
I'm also not big on complaining but the cashier asked how my breakfast was. I told her and decided never to go to that restaurant again.

Thats what I do when the experience of being a customer becomes an exercise in frustration.

hint...

Joe, I remember reading a recent post (but can't find it) about your order that has taken 3 weeks or so to arrive. I'm not sure what you ordered, but I'll take a stab in the dark that it was the hardback versions of M&TA, OG&M, and/or the CKG. First regarding the discounted M&TA/OG&M hardcovers that went on sale. Those were put up for sale, but were delayed because of the book binding issues. Those books were not ready to go at the time of the sale. I think those books are now just being shipped out (within the last week or so). If you ordered the CKG, those special orders go out first orders/first shipped. The CKG went on pre-order back in September 2010 (more or less ). So if you recently ordered the CKG, it's going to be a little while longer. I ordered within the first few days of the CKG going on presale, and I still have not yet got mine.

If this isn't your situation, I appolgize for the long-winded post.

~O

If joe ordered a CKG hard cover I am sure his order shipped within the last 3 days. I was far from the first to place an order, I placed mine in late January, and mine shipped Wed. Along with my hard cover copies of M&T of A and OF Gods and Monsters. Plus a few other things. Such as the Crusader compilations.

Joe- Sucks about the Egg man! Damn those Eggs anyway! Come on over to the pancake table!! have some butter all saved for you!

As far as the CKG goes......blows chicken crap out of a hose it does! Im not sure if I mean that it is totaly worth the wait and kicks arse that much that it makes chickens do that or if I mean sucks that you had to wait and I feel for you! Either way though....watch out for the sidespray!

on second thought Joe- lets go eat somewhere else man.....chicken crap is getting sprayed in here! Who wants to put up with that going on where they eat? You drive and I'll buy.

Yes it was the hardbound sale.
Ok that explains some of the delay but now I'm thinking the post office may have delivered to wrong address.
Davis?...I think thats who Cleaverthepit is, he has already responded and I think they are on it.
With Omote's explanation and the fact that they have responded so soon gives me some satisfaction that its being dealt with.

Gameogre...with all my rants and raves I subject others to I never thought i would tell another poster this...but your scaring me.

GameOgre wrote:I would say Dark Heresy but its really that entire line of games although I love Warhammer Fantasy 2E. Too rules heavy by a looong shot for me.

Pathfinder- Ok,I love the adventures,love the paths ect.. but come on the game is soo damn rules heavy you need two players just to carry it around. I run a Pathfinder weekly game right now and I want to claw my own eyeballs out. It was fine for a while but now............im sick to death of the 3.5 X 3 rules heavy crap. Soon as this game is over im selling my books and going native for good in rules lite land.


Hero- The only rule book I did not even bother to open after first skimming it when I got it for X-mass. Its like a foot thick for gods sake.


Star Wars Saga- Again I own almost every book for it because I have people buy them for me for gifts for my birthday and X-mass. OMFG can anyone suck the joy and thrill of star wars out more then saga did it? Really the system for force powers was so stupid not to mention getting force points back...ugg what a waste. Also I would never run it as the people wanting to play are star wars experts who would want to play in a official SW version of the universe only and would know 2000% more than I.

Paranoia- Only because it seemed like such a good game and I want to play it so bad and I have never had a player willing to play it with me. I feel tortured by this game.

You willing to sell the SW Saga core book? I could use another copy for my group. 6 people and 1 book doesn't work well.

Joe,

At least I know what your late night email rant was (partially) about....

I thought maybe you were out of psyche drugs and self medicating with Jack & Coke, or something!

Feel free to explain a rant when emailing someone about it

4th edition D&D tops the list for me.

Second would probably be Palladium games, in general.

Lastly, I would have to say the Cthulhutech game. Just couldn't get into it (though the system was okay).

4E - I don't hold it against anyone who plays and enjoys it, but it's definitely not my cuppa. Too much videogameyness and nods to the MMO/WOW mentality, which I all but utterly abhor. I consistently wonder if dead characters' players look at their friends across the table and yell "REZ ME!"

Pathfinder - I love the heft of the game book, I don't mind playing the game, I think Paizo has done a wonderful job on it, and will keep buying their books... but I will never, ever GM this monstrosity again. Way too much rules bloat, way too much new splat material, all way too quickly. I played PF Society two years ago at Gen Con and thought I would be a lifer. I played it last year and barely recognized it because of the expanded rules.

Any Archetype, the Noun by White Wolf - That would pretty much cover the vast majority of the game books that came out before Exalted (which I like) and WoD (which I meh). I have no idea if I'd like the game systems, the rules (or lack of), or the character types. The quirky gothic "Anne Rice as a minor benign deity" cult mentality freaks me right out. I know not everyone who plays is like that... but I also know more than one person who treated playing it like their characters' rise or fall in power were major life-changing experiences. Not my cuppa, again... besides, undead and lycanthropes are so freaking played out, IMHO.

Sadly, I have a much lower opinion of WW after their booth at Gen Con last year was nothing more than an overglorified party lounge that advertised their Grand Masquerade Ball Con Thing in New Orleans. And that's too bad, because two years ago, they seemed like decent folks.

Palladium (Non-Fantasy) - I cut my non-D&D teeth on TMNT, Rifts, Ninjas & Superspies, and Heroes Unlimited. Even back then, there was something about the system on the whole that I knew I didn't much care for. I didn't have a terrible issue with understanding the rules themselves, but I definitely didn't much care for the slavish notion to try to wedge everything into a single rule system for such diverse genres, when there were far better systems for handling mechs, superheroes, and the like. Conversely, I really did like the Palladium Fantasy game and consistently mined it for fluff.

AD&D 2.5, Players Option - "Come to me, young children, and hearken back to a time when Strength was not just Strength, but split into the subattributes of Stamina and Muscle, both of which had to be within 2 points of the overall Strength score, while diametrically motivated so that a +1 in one meant a -1 in the other, and while Stamina just covered Weight Allowance, Muscle covered.... Oh, stop your blubbering, dammit! It's not a horror story, this is how it was!!! "

I'm sure there are others, my mind isn't yet kicked fully into gear this morning.

I would say 3.X D&D because it was the system I had the most experience with. I got back into gaming when my brother got out of the military and we picked up where we'd left off, pretty much, from 10 years prior. At first, it was great because at low levels there isn't a lot of work. Then, I became a CDA (Certified D&D Accountant) when the players were around 10th level and had enough. I went looking for another system and came to C&C. I do work at work. I don't want to do accounting at my own table getting games ready. I want to write stories or plots or hooks before my games, not math.

1. Gurps (The game for math majors)

2. Anything by Pallidum games, which was a pity because Rifts had so much potential

3. Shadow Run (love the concept and I have not tried the 4th ed rules though)

ArgoForg wrote:AD&D 2.5, Players Option - "Come to me, young children, and hearken back to a time when Strength was not just Strength, but split into the subattributes of Stamina and Muscle, both of which had to be within 2 points of the overall Strength score, while diametrically motivated so that a +1 in one meant a -1 in the other, and while Stamina just covered Weight Allowance, Muscle covered.... Oh, stop your blubbering, dammit! It's not a horror story, this is how it was!!! "

While I thought that there were certain merits to the stat-split you mentioned, in reality it became a MIN/MAXer's dream game. It was so easy to max out certain things (e.g. "I want to be a great archer and don't care if I trip over my feet when I walk") that the game lost a lot of its fun. This plus kits are two of the big reasons I lost enthusiasm in 2E.

finarvyn wrote:This plus kits are two of the big reasons I lost enthusiasm in 2E.

+1. Man, I hated kits like no one's business, too. It was the beginning of the whole "the DM has to buy/read every splatbook available because the player wants to deck out his wizard with full plate and call it a Warcaster," trend.

ThrorII wrote:Joe,

At least I know what your late night email rant was (partially) about....

I thought maybe you were out of psyche drugs and self medicating with Jack & Coke, or something!

Feel free to explain a rant when emailing someone about it

Loses all the effect of a random rant if you have to explain it.

And it was bourbon and Coke...none of that Tennesse crap for me!

GameOgre wrote:Paranoia- Only because it seemed like such a good game and I want to play it so bad and I have never had a player willing to play it with me. I feel tortured by this game.

I'm with you bud! I would play it in a heartbeat!

One of those gems that got buried under all the splat and glut of the time.

While I don't actively dislike any game per se, the ones that irk me the most are the ones that are math intensive. Gurps has been a staple system with my
gaming group for twenty years, so you would think I love it; in concept, I do love it. Skill based, roll 3d6 under your skill number, and there you have it. Easy right? Gaaaahhhh. Wrong. It has been morphed and morphed over the years to a very maddening number crunching process, especially in character generation. And don't say there is a Gurps lite, because it isn't any lighter, just less of it. And Gurps Ultralite is sooooo light as to be akin to flipping a coin. A nice middle ground would be nice....so I started rewriting the whole thing.....and then I realized that was insanity. Savage Worlds and Cortex have taken it's place for me, though I still dig the idea of rolling 3d6 under your skill. I posted this over at Steve Jackson Games before but folks over there are hardcore simulationist gamers, so a rules light version is the last thing on their minds.

Also, have you ever had a game you enjoyed playing a lot but hated GMing? Rolemaster is that game for me. I love playing it, but would rather stab myeye with a pencil than run a game. For those who have never played it, there is a "to hit" table for every type of weapon, including different kinds of swords, and so forth...literally a book of tables. I remember my GM having bandits, orcs, and so on all have the same armor and weapon....and thought that was lame. When I commented on this, he laughed and said that if I wanted to GM the game next time, go ahead. So I did. I ran a whole campaign for almost two years and it made me want to drink broken glass. I learned why he cut corners very quickly. In Rolemaster, you crunch two and three digit numbers(the bad guy rolls a 97, plus his 36 offensive bonus but then minus the players 34 defensive bonus......oh yeah...the bad guy is operating at -25 due to an injury last round....wait...he's also bleeding at 1 per round, stunned for two rounds, and ...no, wait...he's got that additional crit on him for an extra -1 per round so it's actually -2 per round bleeding, and ......FORGET IT. ) lol.
That being said, pdf.s have made the game easier to run, and printouts of weapon and crit charts can be provided to players to speed things up. Lighter versions, like MERP was much saner. The RMX and HARP do a lot to keep it fun but lessen the chart keeping. Still has the maddening two and three digit number crunching though.

Actually, I greatly dislike GURPS and Champions, neither for what they are, but how they play. Or, more properly, how long character creation takes especially with people who are unfamiliar with either and you have to explain everything, repeatedly, because they want to play but don't "understand."

Dark Conspiracy, too, while somewhat cool in some areas (character careers and age) also suffered from extended character creation.

I want to pick up a book and be ready to play my character in 10-20 minutes. Not hours.

I can imagine what gamers will be talking about in 10-20 years.

"Hey did you hear of that cool new game called Dungeons and Dragons?"

"Yeah, I hear its based off of the original."

"Original D&D?"

"No silly, original World of Warcraft!"

I was really big into D&D back in the day, Holmes Rules, Mentzer Rules and AD&D, but 2nd edition started to get needlessly complex IMO and 3rd went off the rails completely. I actually fell out of RPGs for quite some time assuming that D&D had kind of moved on without me to be something just too complex and too optimization focused until 4E came out and brought me back. Way too much hate out there on that system and I just don't get it.

Until recently, I was running 2 weekly games of 4E and I was turning people away it was so popular. Heck, we even had several girls in one of the games for quite some time. It was a huge success, got probably 15 new people turned onto RPGs with it. I liked it because it was WAY simpler than 3.5 and it was clearly expanding the demographics of the hobby. You could teach someone how to play in minutes, like the old days. The comparisons to WoW are not really fair IMO once you start digging into it and see how it plays. Its the presentation more than anything that is like WoW, not the actual play. They get a lot of things right with it. My issue with it lately is content bloat. They've released a TON of books in the first two years. I've bought most of them and its just WAY WAY WAY too much. I liked it for its simplicity but now, it's losing that advantage. And, the combat takes too long to resolve, thats a fair beef too.

So now, C&C is my game of choice for obvious reasons. I've converted one of my 4E groups to C&C but the other group will be a much tougher sell. They recently moved from Pathfinder to 4E so they are not looking to change again. That, and I run a helluva good game of 4E so they're loving it. I'm just losing my fire for it now that I'm pumped about C&C.

It's hard for me to be pumped about 2 rulesets. Once I mentally make the jump, I just kind of want to move on. So even though I've loved 4E and feel bad theres so much grognard hate for it, I'm kind of done with it too....mentally. It's all C&Cs fault.

OMFG!

I'm so F'ing tired of 4E its drives me crazy! I'm finally walking away from it for good. My last post for it was here. I't was about awarding experience to everyone equally even if they couldn't make it to the game.


Yeah I don't punish anyone in my game. So real life got in the way and he couldn't make it. It's not like everyone else at the table had to juggle real life to and was dedicated enough to make it. Why not give exp's to people for doing noting? Who wants to have to earn anything. Everyone should just level up regardless of even showing up. Heck my 46th level Dragonborn Slayer has never even been played! He Rocks!

I gave treasure out the same way(after all it is a punishment if everyone else got loot but you) but then realized that I could just give my players that to hard task of handing out treasure themselves and make us all happy!

Then I started not having enough time to work on the game before everyone showed so I just handed the adventure to them and let them read it to me. Everyone had a great time and they killed averything no trouble and had tons of reward that was oh so rewarding.

After a bit we ended up just saying we played and had a even better time! Now I can play without even playing! Now we play D&D while playing World of Warcraft or even while posting online! Woot I just gained another level and 44,000 gold!

Sorry but I needed to get off this broken buss a while back and just now realized I had missed my stop.

Bye!

I just can't play it anymore. Everything about the game screams at me now. I just need to walk away and go have a short lay down while listening to some Frank.




Ding! Congratulations you have gained Level 1 Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Hater! Have a great day! Don't forget to go to your trainer and see if you have gained any new skills!

Uhm...decaf gameogre!

Who said anything about 4e?
...interesting.

Was it the video game reference, or my forgetting to mention role playing?

I said 10-20 years. That makes for edition 7 at least.

That gives it plenty of time to be bought by another company a few times and turned into a hybrid, board/collectible/table top/small tactic wargame...called an rpg. That is unless another game has already hammered that niche.

What?!?!

My least favorite game: Russian Roulette

Sorry it wasn't here that the argument took place but several C&C posters were in on it so I posted it here.


I am just done with 4E. I walk away and will never look back!*Que the Drama Music*

Not even if they beg! but please beg so I may yell NEVAH! and stomp off in righteous indignation.