Troll Lord Games

Saw this on the "Old School Gamers" group on Facebook. No details due to the non-disclosure and his personal integrity, but does say "due to differences with the company" vs. differences with the designers.

Not a good sign, though of course time will tell.

http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html

Another nail in the coffin of D&D under WotC's ownership...

I'm sure that this announcement is making Paizo do a little jig.

Though C&C is my game of choice and I really had no desire to purchase 5e, but I was interested to see what 5e was going to be. Now I pretty much don't care.

I think WotC drastically underestimated having Monte Cook on board and the influence he has for the interest in 5e. Though I still hope that 5e is a big success for WotC. It can still keep rpging in the collective consciousness which would still benefit all other companies.

Hasbro may have to rename themselves "Has-been" the rate they are going with this all.

Go0gleplex wrote:Hasbro may have to rename themselves "Has-been" the rate they are going with this all.

Well, not really. The paper RPG revenues probably don't even add up to a rounding error in Hasbro's bottom line.

CKDad wrote:

Go0gleplex wrote:Hasbro may have to rename themselves "Has-been" the rate they are going with this all.

Well, not really. The paper RPG revenues probably don't even add up to a rounding error in Hasbro's bottom line.

Of course not really. But it was a decent play on the name.

True! He shoots! He scores!

CKDad wrote:Saw this on the "Old School Gamers" group on Facebook. No details due to the non-disclosure and his personal integrity, but does say "due to differences with the company" vs. differences with the designers.

Not a good sign, though of course time will tell.

http://montecook.livejournal.com/251404.html

Too bad, I guess she will have to find a gig somewhere else, unless she can live off of Malhavoc press's revenue.

I'm a bit confused though, if the consensus is 3.5 is a bloated mess, why would one of its chief designer's absence from 5e be bad? Nothing against her personally, I'd just like to know.

While I don't like the idea of Monte not being on board it doesn't kill my interest for 5e. Designers come and go at WOTC. The only thing that would make me rethink my interest in the new version is if Andy Collins returned.

Ieuane wrote:Too bad, I guess she will have to find a gig somewhere else, unless she can live off of Malhavoc press's revenue.

I'm a bit confused though, if the consensus is 3.5 is a bloated mess, why would one of its chief designer's absence from 5e be bad? Nothing against her personally, I'd just like to know.

Monte is a dude.

I don't miss playing 3.5, but somebody must have. Seems many of them are playing the 800 pound gorilla, Pathfinder. I don't know what PF improved or messed up from 3.5, but they're doing something right. With or without Monte, WOTC has to win back the Pathfinder players. Good luck with that. As for me and my house, we shall play Castles and Crusades!

I thought 4E was less well received than 3.5. Between the blessing and the curse(for WOTC)of the OGL, the direction of 4E, and to a lesser degree...dropping Living Paperwork, er ummm Greyhawk, methinks they lost a lot of players.

tylermo wrote:I don't miss playing 3.5, but somebody must have. Seems many of them are playing the 800 pound gorilla, Pathfinder. I don't know what PF improved or messed up from 3.5, but they're doing something right. With or without Monte, WOTC has to win back the Pathfinder players. Good luck with that. As for me and my house, we shall play Castles and Crusades!

D&D 3.75 err I mean pathfinder is actually not a bad game and improves on 3.x substantually in my humble opinion. I still prefer 4e essentials more but i would play or run a pathfinder game if my group wanted me to.

I am not sure about the andy collins hate.

Wasn't Monte a co-designer of 3.0 and not 3.5? Or am I thinking of the guy with Door #1, Door #2, and Door #3?

Well, don't let me judge 4E(two total sessions of play)or Pathfinder(haven't played). The opinions run the gamut. One 40-something player tells me PF improved on 3.5(grapple, etc), but didn't go far enough on other things. Others say it's the king of rpg's. Knew a very few people who liked 4E, but some who said it's a good miniatures skirmish game at best. I don't have the money anymore to buy in. I wish 5E well, but I've got a wealth of Castles and Crusades material, and it achieves what I need it to do.

Yep. Monte was a co-creator of the 3rd edition cores.

redwullf wrote:

Ieuane wrote:Too bad, I guess she will have to find a gig somewhere else, unless she can live off of Malhavoc press's revenue.

I'm a bit confused though, if the consensus is 3.5 is a bloated mess, why would one of its chief designer's absence from 5e be bad? Nothing against her personally, I'd just like to know.

Monte is a dude.

I know, just a little 3.x/Malhavoc pronoun parody. Ever read Arcana Unearthed? The Warmain is a she, and the Witch is a he.

Ieuane wrote:

redwullf wrote:

Ieuane wrote:Too bad, I guess she will have to find a gig somewhere else, unless she can live off of Malhavoc press's revenue.

I'm a bit confused though, if the consensus is 3.5 is a bloated mess, why would one of its chief designer's absence from 5e be bad? Nothing against her personally, I'd just like to know.

Monte is a dude.

I know, just a little 3.x/Malhavoc pronoun parody. Ever read Arcana Unearthed? The Warmain is a she, and the Witch is a he.

Ah. Too obscure for me, I reckon. Similar to when Dennis Miller would say things like, "Why do we chase druggies down like villagers after
Karlov?" Who the hell is Karlov? Boris Karlov, the early to mid-20th century accordionist? Sometimes, the joke is so buried we just can't see it.

concobar wrote:
I am not sure about the andy collins hate.

I don't hate Andy Collins. Now, I do dislike what he had done after he took over as senior designer. There is a marked difference in 3e before Collins and after. After Adkinson and Williams left and Collins took over things became much more 'crunchy' and more in line with the powergaming side of D&D. Andy was also the lead designer on 3.5 and there is where you get the combat grid being mandatory, ramped up complexity and some really broken content. Collins was notorious for making comments that were nearly derogatory towards older editions and those who liked them. He was also involved in much of the design for 4e as well. That is why I would be worried if he returned to design on 5e.

As and aside, I have to wonder why expressing a dislike or criticism for something is automatically hate.

On a semi-related note: I found it funny that Monte Cook travels around with a large entourage of nerds at Gen Con. You could almost always pick out where that dude was from a distance by the amount of displacement caused by the movement of his human floatilla of hangers-on. The only time that might not have been as evident was in 2007 when Gary was there. The mass of humanity that engulfed Gary as he meandered about the convention center was truly amazing (and well-deserved, IMO!).

2007 GenCon. That's one for the books. Glad I was there to see Gary.

While I still intend on checking it out, my hopes for it diminish a little with this announcement. I will keep an open mind, though. I'm not a fan of Mearls, though, even though Iron Heroes was good. Good in concept, dubious in delivery...in my opinion. JG mentioned Andy's taste for crunch. I think he got it from Mearls, to be honest. He was the originator of the "what can D&D learn from mmos?" crap. I guess I better stop bashing the guy, as that wasn't the intent of my post. Monte will come out alright - he's got Geek Seekers going on, he's at a ton of conventions coming up, Ptolus's reprint did well, and I'm sure Paizo will be a-calling at some point.
BD, I think Monte has earned some of that following I saw at least year's GenCon. Maybe not all of it's deserved, but I would wager some is. He's a great designer, in my opinion, and really seperated himself with his efforts from the late 2e/early 3e D&D group of designers. I don't know...I see him as one of the most (if not the most) recognized luminary in the game industry today. With some of the old guard, of course.

Lord Dynel wrote: JG mentioned Andy's taste for crunch. I think he got it from Mearls, to be honest.

Meals was hired by WOTC in 2005 while Andy was with them since 1996. If anything, Mearls would have learned from Collins.

LD: I certainly didnt mean to imply that he doesnt deserve his followers. I played and enjoyed 3e D&D for a few years before rediscovering my love for the old school feel of lighter rulesets and I credit his part in delivering that experience. I really did just think it was amusing that you could see such a mass of folks wherever Monte went.

Yeah. The rest of us hover around Stephen and Davis. Nothing funny about that.

Breakdaddy wrote:LD: I certainly didnt mean to imply that he doesnt deserve his followers. I played and enjoyed 3e D&D for a few years before rediscovering my love for the old school feel of lighter rulesets and I credit his part in delivering that experience. I really did just think it was amusing that you could see such a mass of folks wherever Monte went.

Sorry, sir, I wasn't saying that you thought he didn't deserve his following. Hell, I'm not sure he deserves it all. He has quite an entourage, for sure! Very funny to see.

Julian Grimm wrote:Meals was hired by WOTC in 2005 while Andy was with them since 1996. If anything, Mearls would have learned from Collins.

That's true. But those are just hiring dates. I was referring to influence. While I'm interested in taking a look at Andy's work, I'm not going to do a study of his Pre- and Post- Mearls pieces for crunch content. Looking at his bibliography, Andy's 3rd edition stuff came before Mearls, while his 4e, SWSE and Gamma World books came after. It's a toss-up, in my opinion, as to what's more crunchy.


ADMIN EDIT: Fixed syntax on the quote.

Julian Grimm wrote:

concobar wrote:
I am not sure about the andy collins hate.

I don't hate Andy Collins. Now, I do dislike what he had done after he took over as senior designer. There is a marked difference in 3e before Collins and after. After Adkinson and Williams left and Collins took over things became much more 'crunchy' and more in line with the powergaming side of D&D. Andy was also the lead designer on 3.5 and there is where you get the combat grid being mandatory, ramped up complexity and some really broken content. Collins was notorious for making comments that were nearly derogatory towards older editions and those who liked them. He was also involved in much of the design for 4e as well. That is why I would be worried if he returned to design on 5e.

As and aside, I have to wonder why expressing a dislike or criticism for something is automatically hate.

I honestly had no idea who andy collins was before your post, I had to look the guy up..

The usage of hate in the context of my post was just an internet colloquialism and does not imply that you actually hate andy collins or anyone else for that matter.

Regarding Mr. Cook's flock of people...one might say he has an montourage.

tylermo wrote:Regarding Mr. Cook's flock of people...one might say he has an montourage.

I think you just trumped YoYo on the puns.

Yes. I suppose I have. I'd have to come up with far more than that to top the YoYo Man. When we're all at GenCon, I'm totally pointing out his devotees, and claiming to be the man who coined their new name...the Montourage! Poor guy may be trying to avoid them like Graham Chapman's unwanted followers in Monty Python's Life of Brian. There was no entourage when I got my 3.5 cores signed by him in the lobby at GenCon. That might have been in the pre-Malhavoc Press era. Just ignore me. I'm talking a bunch of sh!t.