Troll Lord Games

So their kickstarter is really picking up steam and it keeps emailing me and i'm like, this close to buying a book.
Someone talk me out of it.

It's still 0E D&D with all the inherent flaws. Which is great, but do you really think you'll ever want to play a game of that instead of C&C? Plus the rules are available online, so if you're only going to play a one off, why not just use that instead?

(All opinions are written for the express purpose of talking you out of it and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the author of this post.)

It's a clone of OD&D, and that's enough to turn me off to it. However, do explain what you mean by "inherent flaws".

It's not all that balanced, there are arbitrary limits for characters and most people find the game relies on house rules to be playable. It's fun if you have a desire to play D&D 0E, but I wouldn't choose it for a primary game for any other reason than that.

But Swords and Wizardry won the Silver for the 2009 ENnie Award for Best Free Product.[21]

I love the spirit of the game, but C&C is where it is at.

~O

But the Swords & Wizardry Kickstarter, you have to buy it...it's a sale...everyone loves a sale!

Go in for the Black Dragon Level and get...

Black Dragon: The Black Dragon lair is littered with more gems! Here you will receive a SIGNED & NUMBERED copy of both the super-durable signature-stitched hardcover copy of the Swords & Wizardry Complete Rulebook AND the Monster Book. You will receive both PDFs, the newly written Introductory Module, the GM Screen, the custom set of dice, a pad of character sheets, iconic patch, FGG pencil, graph paper, The Black Monastery w/ PDF, The Tome Of Horrors Complete w/ PDF, PDF of card decks (henchman/hireling and equipment cards), and your name will be added to the rulebook as a Black Dragon Slayler....along with a free SIGNED canvas print of the Cover Art by Erol Otus. The print will be 8 1/2 x 11.

Oh and you must add another $100 for Rappan Athuk (Swords & Wizardry Version) and of course why not, for only $10.00 get the print version of the Henchman/Hirleing deck and for another $10.00 you can get the print version of the Equipment Card deck...

Remember it's a sale, it's a deal, only $370.00 but why not round it out to an even $400 with some other goodies like a t-shirt or two, maybe some extra dice?

Really, though, it's for the best that you don't buy it. I mean, do really want to offer a choice to your players over what rules are truly the best for playing do you? We all know that C&C is the right choice, so why offer that freedom.

I mean could you imagine? S&W:Complete next to the reprint of AD&D 1e (or perhaps the game worn originals you own) which is next to C&C. Then the players actually looking at them, and ultimately choosing the play C&C, all on their own?

Yeah too much choice...and of course it is a sale, with only 6 days to go. You don't want to impulse buy do you?

Omote wrote:I love the spirit of the game, but C&C is where it is at.

~O

Wasgo wrote:It's not all that balanced, there are arbitrary limits for characters and most people find the game relies on house rules to be playable. It's fun if you have a desire to play D&D 0E, but I wouldn't choose it for a primary game for any other reason than that.

There are flaws in OD&D, mostly in the presentation. However, the "flaws" you mention seem to be an indictment of the class/level system more than an indictment of the game. I believe the misconception that OD&D is not playable stems from simple ignorance. There are things that are missing in the OD&D rules, but nothing that makes the game unplayable out of the box. I would know, given that I play OD&D as my primary game, with C&C as a secondary game.

Class/level systems are inherently unbalanced and have always been so. Hasbro attempted to change that in d20, with consequences that still haunt us to this day. Consequences such as gamers expecting the archetypes to be balanced, because that was how d20 did it. In addition, class/level systems have always had arbitrary limits for characters. Heck, going up a level is an arbitrary limit! Wizards not being able to wear armor is an arbitrary limit. Rogues picking pockets while no one else could is an arbitrary limit. Those arbitrary limits are set in place to emphasize the archetypal nature of the characters being portrayed.

The only thing C&C does differently than OD&D is in codifying a means for the characters to do things not normally permitted by their archetype, such as a fighter attempting to pick a pocket. In C&C you use the SIEGE engine to do that. In OD&D, a house rule was required, which brings me to my last point: house rules or the lack thereof do not define how playable a game is. For instance, Call of Cthulhu Keepers frequently use house rules to take into account things that do not appear in the CoC rulebook, such as opposed skill checks. Thus CoC Keepers have to come up with a house rule to cover that situation. Does that suddenly make Call of Cthulhu unplayable? If so, then perhaps it's time to quit the hobby altogether as no ruleset can cover everything.

Traveller wrote:There are flaws in OD&D, mostly in the presentation. However, the "flaws" you mention seem to be an indictment of the class/level system more than an indictment of the game.

The class and level system is a huge part of the game. To separate the two is disingenuous.

I believe the misconception that OD&D is not playable stems from simple ignorance. There are things that are missing in the OD&D rules, but nothing that makes the game unplayable out of the box. I would know, given that I play OD&D as my primary game, with C&C as a secondary game.

If you read what I wrote, I said that most people find it to be unplayable without house rules. I didn't say the game is unplayable nor did I claim that it's difficult to make house rules. I've tried playing the OD&D without house rules in the past and found it to be painful. I personally wouldn't play it without house rules as I didn't enjoy it that way.

There are other games that I would play as written; C&C is one of them.

While I loved OD&D when I grew up playing it, I personally would never recommend it over C&C or certain other modern refinements of the rules. People who want to play OD&D typically want to play OD&D. I don't feel that it fills any other void in the modern RPG landscape than that.

My entire point is this: you are stating that OD&D is "flawed" because it's not balanced, has arbitrary limits, and cannot adequately be played without house rules. I believe the problem I'm having here isn't in you highlighting OD&D's "flaws" while ignoring the possibility that C&C inherits those same "flaws", but stating an opinion as fact.

You said earlier, "most people find it [OD&D] to be unplayable without house rules." Of whom do you speak when you say "most people"? You certainly don't speak for me, because I don't believe the game is unplayable without house rules. I know that if you were to ask Finarvyn he may well provide a different answer from mine. There are plenty of other OD&D players out there besides myself and Finarvyn. If you actually asked them whether OD&D was unplayable without house rules, what kind of response do you think you would get?

Your statement about house rules I believe to be invalid, because you based it on your personal experience of "I personally wouldn't play it without house rules as I didn't enjoy it that way." You then projected that opinion onto a nebulous group, "most people", then proceeded to phrase that opinion in such a manner as to have it appear like a fact. I don't have a problem with people stating opinions or having opinions, as long as it's clear that it is merely an opinion and not an opinion masquerading as a fact.

The Metal, FTW!

The Metal, FTW!

I've noticed this recently; a lot of KSs seem more like massive sales than funding drives. But one could argue, what's the difference?

First, get the free Core rules and take 'em for a spin, if you haven't already. Or, if you want to have some real fun, get the White Box rules (also free).

Me? I own hardcovers of all 3 versions: White Box, Core, and a numbered/signed Complete (which is what the Kickstarter is bringing back to print). They number among my favorites of the clones on my shelf. So with that, I say look at the free options first, but I won't talk you out of buying into the Kickstarter. S&W Complete is good, delicious, OD&D fun.

yeah, I already have Brave Halfling's white box of S&W, and I really liked it.

It ain't no Castles & Crusades Player's Handbook, 5th printing... IN COLOR!

~O

that's for sure.
the Color PHB is gorgeous.

Werd to yer mutha.

I really like Swords & Wizardry. Sometimes I run it on its own. Same for Castles & Crusades. But most often, I mash 'em up using bits from each.

Whenever enough of my face to face group fails to show up, Swords and Wizardry is used as our "one shot" game for the night, and thanks to this Kickstarter I will have 4 copies of the Complete Rules.

So i picked up a copy of the Tome of Horrors Complete (S&W version). Just curious on how you all handle converting the stats over to C&C?

Seems fairly easy, HD makes it easy for hit points and of course the monsters bonus to hit any thoughts on this?

TheMetal1 wrote:So i picked up a copy of the Tome of Horrors Complete (S&W version). Just curious on how you all handle converting the stats over to C&C?

Seems fairly easy, HD makes it easy for hit points and of course the monsters bonus to hit any thoughts on this?

Converting from any edition to C&C is primarily all about the HD. Sometimes the hardest thing for me to decide is what to have has Prime. Usually just thinking about the over all theme, or feel, of the creature makes it seem pretty obvious to me that it should be all "P" or all "M", then I will run into something that I am unsure about, and the Tome has quit a few of those.

Some where around these forums should be a stickied thread for converting to C&C.

Seems that the Trolls have unstickied all the threads that used to be stickied. Fortunately I tend to copy/paste the really useful stuff, such as Bashman's guidelines on converting D20 to C&C, which of course can be used as a guideline for pretty much anything, including S&W:

Joe forwarded me an email in which a person wanted a guideline for converting a certain module (Crypt of the Devil Litch) to C&C. I personally don't have this module, however I can give you guys a quick guideline that I used myself to make things for Mysterious Tower work for C&C.

The easiest thing to convert is the monsters. All you need to do is look up the same monster in the C&C Monsters and Treasure book! You can mark the pages in the module and your M&T book with color coded sticky notes so that you always know what page to turn to in a hurry and don't have to bother with making notes.

If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.

The monsters presented in the RC are 90% compatable with C&C rules. The only thing that you would need to actively convert is armor class and saving throws. To convert D&DRC armor class to C&C, simply subtract the given AC from 19. Remember that subtracting a negative number is the same thing as addition. So a D&D monster listed as AC 5 would be AC 14 in C&C (19-5= 14). A monster with AC -3 would become AC 22 in C&C (19+3 =22). Saves are easier to convert. If the creature saves as a fighter, thief, dwarf, or halfling it is Physical prime. If it saves as an elf, cleric, or wizard it is mental prime. Use the creatures HD as the bonus to all rolls (including saves, attacks, etc). Simple, eh?

If using 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D as a resource, armor class is also easy to manage. Simply subtract the listed AC from 20. So an AC 5 creature would be AC 15 in C&C and an AC -3 character would be AC 23 in C&C. Saves convert the same as in basic D&D.

If you want to convert DIRECTLY from d20 system, use the same Hit Dice and die type as the creature already has, but get rid of the bonus hit points. So a creature listed as 5d10+15 HD in d20 would convert to 5d10 in C&C. You should also take away any bonuses to the damage dice listed. If the bonus listed is higher than the die, just make the attack use the die type, and double it. So a creature listed as doing d4+5 damage, change it to 2d4. If a creature had d6+3 dmg, just convert it to d6. These changes are because hit points and damage are harder to come by in C&C than they are in d20. If a creature's good saves are FORT or REF, it is Physical prime. If it is WILL the creature is mental prime. If they are all good saves, it is physical and mental prime.

Converting Saves
Older editions of D&D had 5 saving throws. C&C has 6 and they are just about the same, except the C&C saves are directly linked to stats. The old D&D saves were as follows and converts to C&C as presented below:

Paralysis-- Str
Breath Weapon (and area of affect spells like fireball)-- Dex
Poison, Death-- Con
Wands, Staves, Wands (and Illusions)-- INT
Spells (except illusions and area of affect spells like fireball and charm or sleep spells)-- WIS
Enchantment spells (sleep, charm, etc) and fear= CHA

Converting d20 saves is a little trickier and involves a judgement call by the CK converting it. You just have to use some logic as to which converts to what.

FORT-- STR or CON (depending on the effect)
REF-- DEX
WILL--INT, WIS, or CHA (Depending on the source of the spell/effect, CK's call)

Converting DCs to Challenge Levels.

I use a simple formula for this. I assume that DC 15 is the average DC of a check in d20. In C&C, the average difficulty of a task is CL 0. So every 1 the DC is higher than 15 in D20, the CL is 1 higher. So a DC 19 check would convert to a CL 4 check. For every 1 the DC is lower than 15 in D&D, the CL is -1. So a DC 12 check would be CL -3 in C&C. The CL of course is added to the base of 12/18 depending on if the character is prime in the required stat.

Converting Skill Checks
Simply make the skill check into an attribute check for the skill that is normally tied to that attribute. You may want to give certain classes a bonus in this, or even restrict who can try based on class. For instance a Search check would simply convert to an INT check, which anybody can do, but a Survival check to track somebody should be limited to rangers or maybe druids (with a penalty as it is not a class ability for them).

Converting damage from traps--
If the trap is related to a spell, look up the C&C equivilent and adjust the effect accordingly.

If the damage is related to a weapon, look up that weapons damage in C&C and convert it.

If damage is listed as a die with a damage bonus exceeding the die types, add another die to the damage instead. If it has a damage bonus less than the die type, get rid of the bonus damage.

So if a trap is listed as doing 5d6+7 damage, convert it to 6d6 damage for C&C. If it does 5d6+4 damage, it just does 5d6.

Well, that is all that comes to mind for now. Let me know if you think of any other questions about conversion.

The Tome of Horrors Complete (THC) I have is actually the Swords & Wizardry Complete (SWC) version, which is supposed to be based off of OD&D with all the expansion books, and then streamlined a bit. I started on the SWC kick as I want to pick up Rappan Athuk when it comes out as I think it would be an easier conversion than the Pathfinder Rappan Athuk.

While I do enjoy Swords & Wizardry both the WB and Complete, I'm thinking that I would really just rather run it using C&C, or at least start out that way and maybe make it a FLAILSNAIL game as it goes on.

Treebore wrote:If the monster you want to convert is not in the Monsters and Treasure Book, I would consult an older edition of D&D-- my personal favorite being the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia. If you don't have it you can buy the pdf for 5 dollars at rpgnow.com or buy a used one on ebay.

There's a lot of good information here, thank you Treebore. But, the above bit about the RC being available as a PDF for 5 bucks? Oh, how I wish!

I use my Tome of Horrors Complete (S&W) weekly in my C&C games.

~O

redwullf wrote:There's a lot of good information here, thank you Treebore. But, the above bit about the RC being available as a PDF for 5 bucks? Oh, how I wish!

Alas, while today the WOTC/TSR Catalog is unavailable in PDF, there was a time (2008) when you could download most of the older stuff for only $5.00. At the time I only picked up some Dark Sun stuff. I'm kicking myself for not getting OD&D and all the supplements along with the BECMI. I probably would have spent at tops about $50.00 for all that.

I have been remiss as well, so let me say thank you to Treebore for posting this message on the conversion stuff very helpful.

As I ponder this Swords & Wizardry Tome of Horrors Complete, again it seems fairly simply and the more I read the more I'm thinking it will be very, very easy to run this Rappan Athuk straight up C&C. Just a few points to consider

1. Saving Throws: First the monsters have a single save, which is the Target Number the creature needs to meet or exceed. As C&C creatures also have a single save (either a M or a P) so my initial thoughts are that I don't need to change anything there.

2. Magic Resistance: The second is Magic Resistance. SWC uses a % of Magic Resistance, while C&C calls it Spell Resistance and uses a d20. Again easy conversion as every 5% is a 1 on the d20 to so a Magic Resistance of 50% in SWC would be a 10 in C&C.

3. Alignment: SWC uses only Lawful, Neutral or Chaos for alignment descriptors. Usually an obvious judgement call on the part of the Castle Keeper here, as C&C has 9 fold alignment (LG, LN, LE, NG, N, NE, CG, CN, CE) Chaos is one of the Evils, Lawful is one of the Goods, Neutral is well Neutral.

4. Challenge Level/XP: SWC uses a Challenge Level to give the GM/CK a frame of reference for what might be appropriate to put up against the PCs of a particular level. Which is nice I suppose for designing adventures. In a quick comparison of a C&C Goblin with a SWC Goblin, the C&C Gobo is a bit tougher (slightly more XP, higher AC, etc.), haven't compared any others but just using that example the power level of C&C is a bit higher. So I'll keep that in mind.

All the rest of the stuff you need is found in the description of the Monster - number appearing, special abilities description, etc.

Sword & Wizardry is good for one thing (as a clone) ... it provides a decent baseline / source game system. Is it what I run and prefer? No. However, given it's basic nature and structure, material for it is instantly usable and functional. The core rules is freely available and OGL compliant and it's a great foundation if you want to take it and 'make it your own'.

Is it 'necessary'? No... but having it available when the original D&D books are not is very handy and even welcome!

I own the WB that BHP put out which is my favorite incarnation but I did end up backing the KS given the fine work that Frog God Games is doing and to complement the S&W Rappan Athuk material I also got from FGG in their previous KS.

M

TheMetal1 wrote:As I ponder this Swords & Wizardry Tome of Horrors Complete, again it seems fairly simply and the more I read the more I'm thinking it will be very, very easy to run this Rappan Athuk straight up C&C.

I'll be likely using C&C to run my Rappan Athuk campaign (using the S&W RA material). It will be a synch and, correctly, much easier than PF (though, even there, it's quite manageable).

M

I haven't reread my previous posts, so please forgive any repeats I make.

My face to face group plays, and half the time I am the GM, Swords and Wizardry. We do this when only 3 or 4 out of the total of 8 of us show up for a game session. WE normally play Castles and Crusades otherwise. So I use the rules both to run and play, as well as steal for C&C games, especially monsters and adventures.

So in my opinion, it plays well. Which is surprising for me because initially I was pretty sure I would not like it. In fact, there are things I do not like, but have ultimately been such a minor issue that my group and I still enjoy playing it.

As far as using S&W monsters, adventures, etc... in C&C it is very easy to convert. Very easy.