Troll Lord Games

Ok, so I have been spending a good bit of time with the shiny new 5e PHB and adventure book I purchased, and have already posted a few things below on my initial reactions, but thought I'd just sum up what happened a few moments ago....

As I was still reading and making my way through I did notice myself stopping, re-reading, working to connect the rules and all the ramifications. So just for a moment sat it down, and reached to the side of my desk where my other brand new, shiny PHB, the 6th printing, sat. I've said C&C would already remain my "go to" Fantasy RPG, but it suddenly struck me that the new PHB, with the clean-up of errata, better color all-around, bigger font, and just overall strength in production values comes at the perfect time. In the past, I would recommend C&C but a LOT of RPGers out there are just tough to sell on product that isn't in the shiny, full-color format - for whatever reason they just saw the B&W as "less real" or "less professional" than "official" D&D or PF productions. The new C&C printing coming out just as the new 5e really allows C&C to stand on its feet toe-to-toe with the new D&D, and the simplicity and elegance of the rules is what still makes C&C, for me and I suspect many others here, "our edition of choice of the broader game that is D&D."

And, given the release schedule for WotC for their MM and DMG, let's get the edited, full-color updated printings of the M&T and CKG done and out while the new 5e books are still waiting, and give some new players a chance to say "hey, let me look at this while I have to wait!"

Oh, and as I've suggested - once these printings are done, let's please KEEP THIS TRADE dress through a couple of future printings - one thing I can say from talking to people is there's a bit of confusion for newcomers on which version/printing of the various books they need and what are the differences. To Steve & Co., time to resist, when the 6th sells through, changing art and dress again just because it's a new printing - same with new M&T and CKG. Sure, clean or correct any newly caught errata, but keep this beautiful new production as THE look of C&C for some time to come.

Hear Hear! I agree completely.

Once the "New Hotness" effect dies down, I will be able to speak to my group sensibly and they will be able to hear what I am saying about C&C. Right now they are in the throws of "new edition = best game ever" group-think and are hung up on the D&D name. They aren't interested in C&C. However, once the D&D newness dies down, I think the upgraded color and larger font will make the C&C PHB 'feel' like a viable alternative to them, with support and high production values, and they will be able to evaluate it more fairly compared to the juggernaut that is D&D.

My other group already plays so many games they don't even have 5e PHBs on their radar. They have already agreed to play C&C and I am planning a long term campaign for them. I have 6th printing PHBs for them and I am sure they will love them.

Hmm. No one I know or game with ha anything but a "meh" attitude after reading the 5E stuff. But, all of them are over 30 yrs old too.

Arduin wrote:Hmm. No one I know or game with ha anything but a "meh" attitude after reading the 5E stuff. But, all of them are over 30 yrs old too.

My 5e group are all people who are new to roleplaying, and they specifically wanted to play D&D since it is the "most famous" RPG and it was, basically, the only one they had heard of. Included in the group are two 40-somethings, two 30-somethings, and a 17 year old. Plus me - 40, but I've been playing since 1982.

My other group, the one that plays a whole bunch of games includes players all in their late 30s to early 40s who have been playing since high school or before, so... yeah, they have a 'meh' response to 5e as well, but mostly because they have played a ton of different games (including all editions of D&D) and have been exposed to lots of different mechanics.

DMSamuel wrote:

Arduin wrote:Hmm. No one I know or game with ha anything but a "meh" attitude after reading the 5E stuff. But, all of them are over 30 yrs old too.

My 5e group are all people who are new to roleplaying, and they specifically wanted to play D&D since it is the "most famous" RPG and it was, basically, the only one they had heard of. Included in the group are two 40-somethings, two 30-somethings, and a 17 year old. Plus me - 40, but I've been playing since 1982.

My other group, the one that plays a whole bunch of games includes players all in their late 30s to early 40s who have been playing since high school or before, so... yeah, they have a 'meh' response to 5e as well, but mostly because they have played a ton of different games (including all editions of D&D) and have been exposed to lots of different mechanics.

Yep, my players are experienced also.

I think it helps to look at a new RPG with experience with a lot of other RPG's. It shows us there isn't only "one right way" to play. People with minimal experience don't know how well completely different mechanics can work just as well, if not better, than that one RPG they do know. Plus its a bit intimidating to look at all those "other" RPG's out there, and think about how much it will cost to get them. So people do have several good reasons to be resistant to trying out other RPG's, and I suspect additional costs are the biggest part of that. Sure, they can use your books to give it a try, but they know if they like it, they will want to have their own, so will cost them, sooner or later.

Heck, I've just gone through that with Rifts. Even though I got awesome deals, and got almost every book for less than $9.00, except the Ultimate rule book, and even got 3 effectively for free, it has still cost me a few hundred dollars to get the 50 books and Rifters I have gotten in the last two months. If I had paid full retail it would have cost well over $1,000.00. So cost is an issue for people, and understandably so.

Treebore wrote:I think it helps to look at a new RPG with experience with a lot of other RPG's. It shows us there isn't only "one right way" to play. People with minimal experience don't know how well completely different mechanics can work just as well, if not better, than that one RPG they do know. Plus its a bit intimidating to look at all those "other" RPG's out there, and think about how much it will cost to get them. So people do have several good reasons to be resistant to trying out other RPG's, and I suspect additional costs are the biggest part of that. Sure, they can use your books to give it a try, but they know if they like it, they will want to have their own, so will cost them, sooner or later.

Heck, I've just gone through that with Rifts. Even though I got awesome deals, and got almost every book for less than $9.00, except the Ultimate rule book, and even got 3 effectively for free, it has still cost me a few hundred dollars to get the 50 books and Rifters I have gotten in the last two months. If I had paid full retail it would have cost well over $1,000.00. So cost is an issue for people, and understandably so.

For my peers, cost of 5E is no issue. For newer players (especially younger) I'm sure it is a factor.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it helps to look at a new RPG with experience with a lot of other RPG's. It shows us there isn't only "one right way" to play. People with minimal experience don't know how well completely different mechanics can work just as well, if not better, than that one RPG they do know. Plus its a bit intimidating to look at all those "other" RPG's out there, and think about how much it will cost to get them. So people do have several good reasons to be resistant to trying out other RPG's, and I suspect additional costs are the biggest part of that. Sure, they can use your books to give it a try, but they know if they like it, they will want to have their own, so will cost them, sooner or later.

Heck, I've just gone through that with Rifts. Even though I got awesome deals, and got almost every book for less than $9.00, except the Ultimate rule book, and even got 3 effectively for free, it has still cost me a few hundred dollars to get the 50 books and Rifters I have gotten in the last two months. If I had paid full retail it would have cost well over $1,000.00. So cost is an issue for people, and understandably so.

For my peers, cost of 5E is no issue. For newer players (especially younger) I'm sure it is a factor.

Then I can only assume your "peers" are in a good place, financially speaking. Most of my fellow gamers live pay check to pay check, or don't even have a job. So cost is definitely a factor, and a big one.

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it helps to look at a new RPG with experience with a lot of other RPG's. It shows us there isn't only "one right way" to play. People with minimal experience don't know how well completely different mechanics can work just as well, if not better, than that one RPG they do know. Plus its a bit intimidating to look at all those "other" RPG's out there, and think about how much it will cost to get them. So people do have several good reasons to be resistant to trying out other RPG's, and I suspect additional costs are the biggest part of that. Sure, they can use your books to give it a try, but they know if they like it, they will want to have their own, so will cost them, sooner or later.

Heck, I've just gone through that with Rifts. Even though I got awesome deals, and got almost every book for less than $9.00, except the Ultimate rule book, and even got 3 effectively for free, it has still cost me a few hundred dollars to get the 50 books and Rifters I have gotten in the last two months. If I had paid full retail it would have cost well over $1,000.00. So cost is an issue for people, and understandably so.

For my peers, cost of 5E is no issue. For newer players (especially younger) I'm sure it is a factor.

Then I can only assume your "peers" are in a good place, financially speaking. Most of my fellow gamers live pay check to pay check, or don't even have a job. So cost is definitely a factor, and a big one.

Yes. None live paycheck to paycheck. Those days ended a few years after college graduation for most of them.

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:

Arduin wrote:

Treebore wrote:I think it helps to look at a new RPG with experience with a lot of other RPG's. It shows us there isn't only "one right way" to play. People with minimal experience don't know how well completely different mechanics can work just as well, if not better, than that one RPG they do know. Plus its a bit intimidating to look at all those "other" RPG's out there, and think about how much it will cost to get them. So people do have several good reasons to be resistant to trying out other RPG's, and I suspect additional costs are the biggest part of that. Sure, they can use your books to give it a try, but they know if they like it, they will want to have their own, so will cost them, sooner or later.

Heck, I've just gone through that with Rifts. Even though I got awesome deals, and got almost every book for less than $9.00, except the Ultimate rule book, and even got 3 effectively for free, it has still cost me a few hundred dollars to get the 50 books and Rifters I have gotten in the last two months. If I had paid full retail it would have cost well over $1,000.00. So cost is an issue for people, and understandably so.

For my peers, cost of 5E is no issue. For newer players (especially younger) I'm sure it is a factor.

Then I can only assume your "peers" are in a good place, financially speaking. Most of my fellow gamers live pay check to pay check, or don't even have a job. So cost is definitely a factor, and a big one.

Yes. None live paycheck to paycheck. Those days ended a few years after college graduation for most of them.

Heck, I only got my CC's paid off about a year ago. Only "debt" we have right now are mortgages and monthly utilities/cable/etc...

Treebore wrote:
Heck, I only got my CC's paid off about a year ago. Only "debt" we have right now are mortgages and monthly utilities/cable/etc...

I didn't have any college debt. *thank the Lord) Scholarships and worked during college. Same with wife. Sold our houses right before crash. I won't buy again for a few years though.

seskis281 wrote:"our edition of choice of the broader game that is D&D."

That's an interesting and accurate way to put it. For me, D&D stopped being D&D with the release of 3rd Edition... the change to focusing on character builds and powers (which admittedly must have been a direction inspiration from the notorious splatbooks of 2.5) marked a change in the game from focusing on the adventure to focusing on the characters. Literally, the entire viewpoint and perspective of play was different, in my mind. But new games like C&C, HackMaster and eventually LL and S&W captured the original viewpoint and became kind of a broader D&D.

seskis281 wrote: Oh, and as I've suggested - once these printings are done, let's please KEEP THIS TRADE dress through a couple of future printings - one thing I can say from talking to people is there's a bit of confusion for newcomers on which version/printing of the various books they need and what are the differences. To Steve & Co., time to resist, when the 6th sells through, changing art and dress again just because it's a new printing - same with new M&T and CKG. Sure, clean or correct any newly caught errata, but keep this beautiful new production as THE look of C&C for some time to come.

Yes! I think it is time to have a set Edition for a while. Build out the other C&C products around these 3 very nice books.

I would care to predict, that C&C will be the choice o' GMs, whilst D&D will be the choice o' players.

slimykuotoan wrote:I would care to predict, that C&C will be the choice o' GMs, whilst D&D will be the choice o' players.

\
Good! Then C&C wins, because there isn't a game without a GM, except maybe with Numenarea (sp?). The GM determines what they run, and the players play!

Treebore wrote:

slimykuotoan wrote:I would care to predict, that C&C will be the choice o' GMs, whilst D&D will be the choice o' players.

\
Good! Then C&C wins, because there isn't a game without a GM, except maybe with Numenarea (sp?). The GM determines what they run, and the players play!

Agreed. My players weren't too keen on my changing from 3/3.5e to C&C back in 2005, but I refused to run a game that forced me to do more accounting than I was working on adventures, etc. for the campaign. At least the entry point (of the PHB) was cheap at $20 and one player (my brother, the only other old school gamer in the group) was willing to go back to how things were when he and I were gaming in the 80's. It rejuvenated my GMing, that's for sure.

[insert serleran's excellent argument on why having less (feats, skills, rules, etc.) is more here]

Oh hell yeah. Less is almost always more.
Except in your bank accounts.

Treebore wrote:Good! Then C&C wins, because there isn't a game without a GM, except maybe with Numenarea (sp?). The GM determines what they run, and the players play!

Lol

I wonder then, does C&C appeal more to GMs than to players? If so, can this be remedied? (with new products, etc.)

slimykuotoan wrote:I wonder then, does C&C appeal more to GMs than to players? If so, can this be remedied? (with new products, etc.)

I think the best "remedy" is to show them you don't need a whole bunch of bells and whistles spelled out and listed for you in order to have a great character.

Like in Rigons game last night, unless I had the pre requisite Skill and/or Feat, I would not have been able to write this...

"and my character was the coolest! I did that quadruple-reverse somersault onto the Dragons back from the top of the stairs, and stabbed and slashed it deeply with my 4 (Hasted) attacks, then once the dragon fell, dead, I gracefully slid off of its back like some surfer dude riding a wave, and bowed to my compatriots.

Just call me "Daelin the Dragon Riding Slayer of Coolness!""

All that took was 2 successful DEX based SIEGE checks and 4 solid hits with my (Hasted) attacks. No looking up rules, just the CK going with it and telling me what I had to roll.

Treebore wrote: Like in Rigons game last night...
my character was the coolest! I did that quadruple-reverse somersault onto the Dragons back from the top of the stairs, and stabbed and slashed it deeply with my 4 (Hasted) attacks, then once the dragon fell, dead, I gracefully slid off of its back like some surfer dude riding a wave, and bowed to my compatriots.

Just call me "Daelin the Dragon Riding Slayer of Coolness!""

All that took was 2 successful DEX based SIEGE checks and 4 solid hits with my (Hasted) attacks. No looking up rules, just the CK going with it and telling me what I had to roll.

THIS
THIS THIS THIS!

THIS IS RPG FUN AT IT'S FUNNEST!

When the players think up the crazy s#!t and you as DM/CK scratch your head wondering how/if that would possibly work and they , poof! Dex check and move on.
SO MUCH WIN

Relaxo wrote:

Treebore wrote: Like in Rigons game last night...
my character was the coolest! I did that quadruple-reverse somersault onto the Dragons back from the top of the stairs, and stabbed and slashed it deeply with my 4 (Hasted) attacks, then once the dragon fell, dead, I gracefully slid off of its back like some surfer dude riding a wave, and bowed to my compatriots.

Just call me "Daelin the Dragon Riding Slayer of Coolness!""

All that took was 2 successful DEX based SIEGE checks and 4 solid hits with my (Hasted) attacks. No looking up rules, just the CK going with it and telling me what I had to roll.

THIS
THIS THIS THIS!

THIS IS RPG FUN AT IT'S FUNNEST!

When the players think up the crazy s#!t and you as DM/CK scratch your head wondering how/if that would possibly work and they , poof! Dex check and move on.
SO MUCH WIN

It was pretty cool. Pretty much turned the tide in the players favor. And it was just kick ass. It's moments like that, that make running C&C so much awesome.

R-

Rigon wrote:

Relaxo wrote:

Treebore wrote: Like in Rigons game last night...
my character was the coolest! I did that quadruple-reverse somersault onto the Dragons back from the top of the stairs, and stabbed and slashed it deeply with my 4 (Hasted) attacks, then once the dragon fell, dead, I gracefully slid off of its back like some surfer dude riding a wave, and bowed to my compatriots.

Just call me "Daelin the Dragon Riding Slayer of Coolness!""

All that took was 2 successful DEX based SIEGE checks and 4 solid hits with my (Hasted) attacks. No looking up rules, just the CK going with it and telling me what I had to roll.

THIS
THIS THIS THIS!

THIS IS RPG FUN AT IT'S FUNNEST!

When the players think up the crazy s#!t and you as DM/CK scratch your head wondering how/if that would possibly work and they , poof! Dex check and move on.
SO MUCH WIN

It was pretty cool. Pretty much turned the tide in the players favor. And it was just kick ass. It's moments like that, that make running C&C so much awesome.

R-

It also showed that spell casters buffing up the Fighter can be more effective than Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. Especially when your opponents are far apart like that. The only negative to the whole thing was Daelin aging a year.

Treebore wrote:

Rigon wrote:

Relaxo wrote:

Treebore wrote: Like in Rigons game last night...
my character was the coolest! I did that quadruple-reverse somersault onto the Dragons back from the top of the stairs, and stabbed and slashed it deeply with my 4 (Hasted) attacks, then once the dragon fell, dead, I gracefully slid off of its back like some surfer dude riding a wave, and bowed to my compatriots.

Just call me "Daelin the Dragon Riding Slayer of Coolness!""

All that took was 2 successful DEX based SIEGE checks and 4 solid hits with my (Hasted) attacks. No looking up rules, just the CK going with it and telling me what I had to roll.

THIS
THIS THIS THIS!

THIS IS RPG FUN AT IT'S FUNNEST!

When the players think up the crazy s#!t and you as DM/CK scratch your head wondering how/if that would possibly work and they , poof! Dex check and move on.
SO MUCH WIN

It was pretty cool. Pretty much turned the tide in the players favor. And it was just kick ass. It's moments like that, that make running C&C so much awesome.

R-

It also showed that spell casters buffing up the Fighter can be more effective than Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. Especially when your opponents are far apart like that. The only negative to the whole thing was Daelin aging a year.

Damn casters.

R-

While I have been enjoying C&C as a GM for a little while now (wouldn't touch the complications inherent in PF or 3.x) I have picked up a copy of the 5th ed D&D handbook and find myself torn. I like the addition of abilities for the various roles (always missed Bards having some magic in C&C) and the backgrounds add even more flavor and customization in a nice spelled out fashion. As a player, comparing the two PHBs I would actually find myself leaning towards the new 5th edition. Play wise they both speedy in combat and checks. Still though I haven't really read through all of the 5th edition phb so I may find that there are things which really go against my style.

gabriellyon wrote:As a player, comparing the two PHBs I would actually find myself leaning towards the new 5th edition.

I can see that. PC's are MUCH harder to kill than in 1st ed, 2nd ed & Old School games. At lower level they are tougher than low - mid level 3.x PC's. Daily reset button/full regeneration is powerful stuff. Along with possibly being able to live through damage almost up to twice your HP, etc.

But, that is a bit too much like video games for me to take the version seriously as a version of D&D. Like 4E was for various reasons.

Arduin wrote:

gabriellyon wrote:As a player, comparing the two PHBs I would actually find myself leaning towards the new 5th edition.

I can see that. PC's are MUCH harder to kill than in 1st ed, 2nd ed & Old School games. At lower level they are tougher than low - mid level 3.x PC's. Daily reset button/full regeneration is powerful stuff. Along with possibly being able to live through damage almost up to twice your HP, etc.

But, that is a bit too much like video games for me to take the version seriously as a version of D&D. Like 4E was for various reasons.

I can see that, but on the other hand it free's up the party from having to have a dedicated healer and allows for more encounters in a session that may come with risk of damage such as traps and not end up with a TPK.

gabriellyon wrote:

Arduin wrote:

gabriellyon wrote:As a player, comparing the two PHBs I would actually find myself leaning towards the new 5th edition.

I can see that. PC's are MUCH harder to kill than in 1st ed, 2nd ed & Old School games. At lower level they are tougher than low - mid level 3.x PC's. Daily reset button/full regeneration is powerful stuff. Along with possibly being able to live through damage almost up to twice your HP, etc.

But, that is a bit too much like video games for me to take the version seriously as a version of D&D. Like 4E was for various reasons.

I can see that, but on the other hand it free's up the party from having to have a dedicated healer and allows for more encounters in a session that may come with risk of damage such as traps and not end up with a TPK.

It sure does. But, heaping magic items on PC's can do that. Making them immortal can do it too. That's not my point. I was only pointing out what makes 5E NOT Old School but, more like the video game mentality. In 5E PC's are no longer "human". They are similar to what you play on a computer. You press reset when things get hairy to go back and try over and over...

Arduin wrote:

gabriellyon wrote:

Arduin wrote:

gabriellyon wrote:As a player, comparing the two PHBs I would actually find myself leaning towards the new 5th edition.

I can see that. PC's are MUCH harder to kill than in 1st ed, 2nd ed & Old School games. At lower level they are tougher than low - mid level 3.x PC's. Daily reset button/full regeneration is powerful stuff. Along with possibly being able to live through damage almost up to twice your HP, etc.

But, that is a bit too much like video games for me to take the version seriously as a version of D&D. Like 4E was for various reasons.

I can see that, but on the other hand it free's up the party from having to have a dedicated healer and allows for more encounters in a session that may come with risk of damage such as traps and not end up with a TPK.

It sure does. But, heaping magic items on PC's can do that. Making them immortal can do it too. That's not my point. I was only pointing out what makes 5E NOT Old School but, more like the video game mentality.

I think my fault in that reply is not properly understanding what old school really is defined by. I played Red box and then 2nd edition back in the day but still do not fully grok what the rules of defining old school are. Your point is well taken.

gabriellyon wrote: I think my fault in that reply is not properly understanding what old school really is defined by. I played Red box and then 2nd edition back in the day but still do not fully grok what the rules of defining old school are. Your point is well taken.

It's not specific rules. It is a feel and gaming philosophy.