My more detailed 5e thoughts
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:07 pm
Ok, so I've had a good bit of time with the new game PHB, and have a more detailed review/set of thoughts:
Production
The production values, on the whole, are nice. Artwork aside for a moment, the general layout, fonts and colors are much more pleasing than 4th edition by far. There is a unique "split texture" on the back cover that evokes a little of the "grit" to the shiny new that has been argued is missing from the art.
I've already discussed the art a little, but I will reiterate here - it certainly seems to want to evoke a "return to the art of late 1e and early 2e," especially of Dragonlance and FR (though, as I said, only if more people were happier living in those worlds
) The full-plate art and cover are the high points, definitely evoking Elmore-esque flavor and Easley-esque. The low points are the character arts and choices of placement. The halflings seem to have oversized heads, and all "short people" seem to be extraordinarily happy, while arcane characters seem to be all extraordinarily "serious." For the race section on Elves, they use Drizzt as the image -- not sure why the very unique Drow would be the template for "Elves" visually except for expectation that he's famous. There is a definite lack of "grit" here, but on the positive side all the spiky armor and steam-punk influences are gone (well, good from my POV anyway).
Organization
I find it interesting that the very 1st part of the introduction is "Worlds of Adventure," and they way the intro is set up and phrased seems VERY familiar to me.
Part I is Character creation, and has 6 chapters that guide the building of characters. And I use that term very specifically because that concept, that characters are complex "builds," is the primary artifact still from 3.5, PF and 4e still inherent in the game. The 3 "pillars" of D&D the intro gives are: "Exploration," "Social Interaction," and "Combat." One thing that jumps out as very oppositional to my like is a paragraph "Exceptions to the rules are often minor.... If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins."
The chapters are:
1. Step-by-step characters - basically how you will use chaps. 2-6, plus discussion of the attributes and ways to generate stats through rolling (ye olde roll 4d6 six times and drop the lowest on each, assign) or through standard set or through pt. buy of stats. It also gives the standardized xp progression chart (uniform for all characters/classes), which is where things seem VERY fast - 300 exp to 2nd, 900 to 3rd, 2700 to 4th.... 64,000 xp gets you 10th level, 355,000 is 20th.
2. Races - all the standards (Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Half-Orc) plus the 2 from 4e (Tiefling and Dragonborn). Each with racial traits to be applied. At this point not unlike C&C, except for those durn Dragonborn and outsiders as PCs lol.
3. Classes - The same as C&C EXCEPT: minus assassin class and knight as class, adding 2 arcane: Sorcerer and Warlock. Each class then has several things to also add - proficiencies, specific domains, circles, guilds, sub-class divisions that give customizing differences to the character. BtH is among the things replaced, with a set proficiency bonus for each class you are supposed to apply to a number of things, including attacks with weapons you are "proficient" in. Extra attacks are definitely nerfed in this addition, the fighter extra attack gain is more in step with C&C (no 5 or 6 attacks by 20th). At this point, the character "build" has about 3 layers of things to keep track of.
4. Personality and Background - The backgrounds are another level of customization to add to the class, and in 5e they seem to replace alignment in level of character importance (though alignment is covered, in 2 paragraphs or so, later, with very little focus). They come with their own sets of character traits and skills as well, so in essence you are adding a third tier to what was "race & class," now with background. It also gives a brief outline of how to "customize" a new background using an existing as a template. The "backgrounds" given are: Acolyte, Charlatan, Criminal, Entertainer, Folk Hero, Guild Artisan, Hermit, Noble (with a "Knight" background variant instead of class), Outlander, Sage, Sailor, Soldier, Urchin. I found the backgrounds somewhat limiting, and would worry it would be hard to explain to players how they could have a "different" background than one in the book - honestly, a simple "Commoner," simple "Farmer-born" and "Merchant-born" would have been welcome. Right off the bat only the Outlander appealed to me as background unless I created a character specifically for, say, the Guild Artisan background. This section, of course, adds the 4th level to the character build.
5. Equipment - including starting gold and the general basic equipment, and here they have simplified - magic equipment is NOT in the PHB, and indeed later there's a statement that magic weapons and items are rare and "beyond gold" and have to be/should be procured through adventuring. I.E. not for sale at the local stores (5e deals with monsters needing magic to hit by bringing back "silver edged weapons" for undead, etc.). The starting gold is nerfed - the highest is 5d4x10, but each class comes with its own basic starting equipment so not as much is needed. The equipment lists are very simplified, and in this way even more so than C&C (only a great-sword after long-sword, for instance). There is a really good section on Transportation costs, Trade goods, and Expenses (Lifestyle expenses simplified to easy price per day), good sections on Food, Drink & Lodging, basic services, Spellcasting services with a codicil that return favor or service should be a cost as well as gold, then several 1e DMG-like pages of "Trinket tables."
6. Customization options - Beginning with multi-classing, which is very 3e-based in "choose what class you choose to level in when you do so," and stating you add the levels of the multi-classes to determine "overall character level." The xp to gain a level is always the combined levels. The 2nd section brings Feats back into the game, on top of applying proficiencies. These are a simplified version of 3x feats, and add the 5th level of character build.
Part 2 is about playing the game, and covers chapters 7-9:
Chapter 7 - Using ability scores, which starts with the basic +'s off the base character stats. The good news is stats are capped at 20 in 5e, and can't be augmented above that as a base (remains to be seen in the DMG if there are higher temporary levels granted by, say, Gauntlets of Ogre Power). The + range is greater: 8-9= -1, 10-11= 0, 12-13= +1, 14-15= +2, 16-17= +3, 18-19= +4, 20= +5 (the chart gives up to 30 because, while adventurers can only go to 20, monsters and divine beings encountered may have higher stats - yes monsters have stats again). The 2nd part explains applying "Advantage and Disadvantage," which basically says when you have some roll from class, race, background, feat, etc. that is either identified as an advantage or disadvantage, you roll two times, and if it's supposed to be an advantage you take the higher, and if you're supposed to be disadvantaged you take the lower roll. An intriguing system mechanic and something I would consider using/adapting in my C&C perhaps (I definitely can see paring it with Amazing Adventures in conjunction with its existing customization). The chapter then goes into using proficiency bonuses, but here I feel it is really lacking and a bit skimpy... by this point a "built character" will have multiple levels of customization, each with differing applications of this unified proficiency bonus. In C&C we can say we have race, class, and then effects of equipment and items - so 3 levels. Here, you do need to cross-reference race, class, class domains or other sub-areas of the classes, backgrounds, and feats, and the WAY the bonus is applied might be different. I didn't mention earlier, but some classes use more GURPS-like "points" in areas like Ki for monks and sorcery points, that can be spent in actions, so sometimes proficiency bonuses give you + to rolls, sometimes they work in conjunction with pt. spending system to add damage dice, etc. Here is where the system seems to be most trying to mash a couple of different eras into one, and is where it gets a bit too fiddly for my tastes and starts to not seem as elegant as C&C.
Right after this is the part that is most inspired by the C&C philosophy, which is the base-ability score mechanic, which says determine what attribute a general check might need and use a base Difficulty Check (like a CR) to roll against - 5 for very simple, 10 for simple, 15 for medium, 20 for hard, 25 for very hard, 30 for "nearly impossible." However immediately following this simple attribute check model, they reintroduce "skills" to add to characters (which actually extends character creation into this chapter), giving a listed set of "skills" to use for checks, making it slightly more complex again as a player is supposed to find "which skill they would apply to a check." There are then sections similarly for using each attribute, and examples, and then saving throws, which are essentially assigned for proficiency based on class.
Chapter 8 is Adventuring. Most is standard, but herein lies the now infamous "short rest" and "long rest" rules that essentially say one good night of 8 hrs sleep completely restores all lost HP, as long as the character has at least 1 to start. Damn. Find that empty room in a dungeon and bar that door!! I admit, I have never liked the "1 HP each night" frame either, and my own house-rule is "tell me how much you're down and I'll tell you how much you get back" which can range from 20% of missing HP to the 40%s depending on how many we're talking, but ALL? Along with the progression this is the other head-scratching thing for me.
Chapter 9 - Combat - Really back to 3e basics, and yes, Attacks of opportunity are there, but at least 5e has "Disengage" as a full action for both PCs and monsters, so if they specifically choose to disengage as their entire move no AoO occurs. The big difference is death saves and no below 0 hit points. If you are hit and the total damage takes you to 0 and if there is more damage, if the remaining damage exceeds your HP maximum, you die. If not, your just stuck at 0 and keep making death saving throws until you're either brought back by help, you die, and it details how this works with subsequent rolls, additional damage taken while at 0, etc. Kind of wonky, I'd stick with my "under 0 your out, dying and possibly bleeding out, -10 is dead, dead."
Part 3 is Magic - Back to vancian, some variants using Sorcery points and rituals, lists of spells.
Appendices - A is "conditions," adding on things like deafened, paralyzed, invisible, etc. B is Gods of the multiverse and gives lists for 4 major settings: Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance, and Eberron as well as Greek, Celtic, Norse and Egyptian. Kind of cool to hit all of these in a simple, short reference. Appendix C is the planes of existence, and does a new Great Wheel of the multi-verse. Appendix D is a sampling of monsters to use to start, including the mundane and a few bigger ones. Stat blocks for monsters are DEFINITELY MUCH SIMPLER AND BETTER THAN 3.5, PF or 4E.
Small things:
I am heartened that the credits name Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, and others as part of the credit for the development of D&D over the years. There is a more definitive awareness of the history and recognition of the past by the people in this edition is heartwarming (4e almost made me drop the thing out of my hands when I read "going back to the original D&D setting, "The Forgotten Realms").
The humor and attitude, while maybe problematic when seeing it in art sometimes, is great when you see this on the credits page:
Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, "Are you really sure?"
This reminds me of what the Trolls would say,
and is a nice thing to see from the current WotC people.
Overall, there's a lot I like about 5e, and could see myself enjoying playing it in the future, but running it isn't likely to be on my radar. It does grab a certain D&D "feel" that was missing for a long time, but in the end C&C already did it and did it better, in my opinion.
Production
The production values, on the whole, are nice. Artwork aside for a moment, the general layout, fonts and colors are much more pleasing than 4th edition by far. There is a unique "split texture" on the back cover that evokes a little of the "grit" to the shiny new that has been argued is missing from the art.
I've already discussed the art a little, but I will reiterate here - it certainly seems to want to evoke a "return to the art of late 1e and early 2e," especially of Dragonlance and FR (though, as I said, only if more people were happier living in those worlds
) The full-plate art and cover are the high points, definitely evoking Elmore-esque flavor and Easley-esque. The low points are the character arts and choices of placement. The halflings seem to have oversized heads, and all "short people" seem to be extraordinarily happy, while arcane characters seem to be all extraordinarily "serious." For the race section on Elves, they use Drizzt as the image -- not sure why the very unique Drow would be the template for "Elves" visually except for expectation that he's famous. There is a definite lack of "grit" here, but on the positive side all the spiky armor and steam-punk influences are gone (well, good from my POV anyway).Organization
I find it interesting that the very 1st part of the introduction is "Worlds of Adventure," and they way the intro is set up and phrased seems VERY familiar to me.
Part I is Character creation, and has 6 chapters that guide the building of characters. And I use that term very specifically because that concept, that characters are complex "builds," is the primary artifact still from 3.5, PF and 4e still inherent in the game. The 3 "pillars" of D&D the intro gives are: "Exploration," "Social Interaction," and "Combat." One thing that jumps out as very oppositional to my like is a paragraph "Exceptions to the rules are often minor.... If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins."
The chapters are:
1. Step-by-step characters - basically how you will use chaps. 2-6, plus discussion of the attributes and ways to generate stats through rolling (ye olde roll 4d6 six times and drop the lowest on each, assign) or through standard set or through pt. buy of stats. It also gives the standardized xp progression chart (uniform for all characters/classes), which is where things seem VERY fast - 300 exp to 2nd, 900 to 3rd, 2700 to 4th.... 64,000 xp gets you 10th level, 355,000 is 20th.
2. Races - all the standards (Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Half-Orc) plus the 2 from 4e (Tiefling and Dragonborn). Each with racial traits to be applied. At this point not unlike C&C, except for those durn Dragonborn and outsiders as PCs lol.
3. Classes - The same as C&C EXCEPT: minus assassin class and knight as class, adding 2 arcane: Sorcerer and Warlock. Each class then has several things to also add - proficiencies, specific domains, circles, guilds, sub-class divisions that give customizing differences to the character. BtH is among the things replaced, with a set proficiency bonus for each class you are supposed to apply to a number of things, including attacks with weapons you are "proficient" in. Extra attacks are definitely nerfed in this addition, the fighter extra attack gain is more in step with C&C (no 5 or 6 attacks by 20th). At this point, the character "build" has about 3 layers of things to keep track of.
4. Personality and Background - The backgrounds are another level of customization to add to the class, and in 5e they seem to replace alignment in level of character importance (though alignment is covered, in 2 paragraphs or so, later, with very little focus). They come with their own sets of character traits and skills as well, so in essence you are adding a third tier to what was "race & class," now with background. It also gives a brief outline of how to "customize" a new background using an existing as a template. The "backgrounds" given are: Acolyte, Charlatan, Criminal, Entertainer, Folk Hero, Guild Artisan, Hermit, Noble (with a "Knight" background variant instead of class), Outlander, Sage, Sailor, Soldier, Urchin. I found the backgrounds somewhat limiting, and would worry it would be hard to explain to players how they could have a "different" background than one in the book - honestly, a simple "Commoner," simple "Farmer-born" and "Merchant-born" would have been welcome. Right off the bat only the Outlander appealed to me as background unless I created a character specifically for, say, the Guild Artisan background. This section, of course, adds the 4th level to the character build.
5. Equipment - including starting gold and the general basic equipment, and here they have simplified - magic equipment is NOT in the PHB, and indeed later there's a statement that magic weapons and items are rare and "beyond gold" and have to be/should be procured through adventuring. I.E. not for sale at the local stores (5e deals with monsters needing magic to hit by bringing back "silver edged weapons" for undead, etc.). The starting gold is nerfed - the highest is 5d4x10, but each class comes with its own basic starting equipment so not as much is needed. The equipment lists are very simplified, and in this way even more so than C&C (only a great-sword after long-sword, for instance). There is a really good section on Transportation costs, Trade goods, and Expenses (Lifestyle expenses simplified to easy price per day), good sections on Food, Drink & Lodging, basic services, Spellcasting services with a codicil that return favor or service should be a cost as well as gold, then several 1e DMG-like pages of "Trinket tables."
6. Customization options - Beginning with multi-classing, which is very 3e-based in "choose what class you choose to level in when you do so," and stating you add the levels of the multi-classes to determine "overall character level." The xp to gain a level is always the combined levels. The 2nd section brings Feats back into the game, on top of applying proficiencies. These are a simplified version of 3x feats, and add the 5th level of character build.
Part 2 is about playing the game, and covers chapters 7-9:
Chapter 7 - Using ability scores, which starts with the basic +'s off the base character stats. The good news is stats are capped at 20 in 5e, and can't be augmented above that as a base (remains to be seen in the DMG if there are higher temporary levels granted by, say, Gauntlets of Ogre Power). The + range is greater: 8-9= -1, 10-11= 0, 12-13= +1, 14-15= +2, 16-17= +3, 18-19= +4, 20= +5 (the chart gives up to 30 because, while adventurers can only go to 20, monsters and divine beings encountered may have higher stats - yes monsters have stats again). The 2nd part explains applying "Advantage and Disadvantage," which basically says when you have some roll from class, race, background, feat, etc. that is either identified as an advantage or disadvantage, you roll two times, and if it's supposed to be an advantage you take the higher, and if you're supposed to be disadvantaged you take the lower roll. An intriguing system mechanic and something I would consider using/adapting in my C&C perhaps (I definitely can see paring it with Amazing Adventures in conjunction with its existing customization). The chapter then goes into using proficiency bonuses, but here I feel it is really lacking and a bit skimpy... by this point a "built character" will have multiple levels of customization, each with differing applications of this unified proficiency bonus. In C&C we can say we have race, class, and then effects of equipment and items - so 3 levels. Here, you do need to cross-reference race, class, class domains or other sub-areas of the classes, backgrounds, and feats, and the WAY the bonus is applied might be different. I didn't mention earlier, but some classes use more GURPS-like "points" in areas like Ki for monks and sorcery points, that can be spent in actions, so sometimes proficiency bonuses give you + to rolls, sometimes they work in conjunction with pt. spending system to add damage dice, etc. Here is where the system seems to be most trying to mash a couple of different eras into one, and is where it gets a bit too fiddly for my tastes and starts to not seem as elegant as C&C.
Right after this is the part that is most inspired by the C&C philosophy, which is the base-ability score mechanic, which says determine what attribute a general check might need and use a base Difficulty Check (like a CR) to roll against - 5 for very simple, 10 for simple, 15 for medium, 20 for hard, 25 for very hard, 30 for "nearly impossible." However immediately following this simple attribute check model, they reintroduce "skills" to add to characters (which actually extends character creation into this chapter), giving a listed set of "skills" to use for checks, making it slightly more complex again as a player is supposed to find "which skill they would apply to a check." There are then sections similarly for using each attribute, and examples, and then saving throws, which are essentially assigned for proficiency based on class.
Chapter 8 is Adventuring. Most is standard, but herein lies the now infamous "short rest" and "long rest" rules that essentially say one good night of 8 hrs sleep completely restores all lost HP, as long as the character has at least 1 to start. Damn. Find that empty room in a dungeon and bar that door!! I admit, I have never liked the "1 HP each night" frame either, and my own house-rule is "tell me how much you're down and I'll tell you how much you get back" which can range from 20% of missing HP to the 40%s depending on how many we're talking, but ALL? Along with the progression this is the other head-scratching thing for me.
Chapter 9 - Combat - Really back to 3e basics, and yes, Attacks of opportunity are there, but at least 5e has "Disengage" as a full action for both PCs and monsters, so if they specifically choose to disengage as their entire move no AoO occurs. The big difference is death saves and no below 0 hit points. If you are hit and the total damage takes you to 0 and if there is more damage, if the remaining damage exceeds your HP maximum, you die. If not, your just stuck at 0 and keep making death saving throws until you're either brought back by help, you die, and it details how this works with subsequent rolls, additional damage taken while at 0, etc. Kind of wonky, I'd stick with my "under 0 your out, dying and possibly bleeding out, -10 is dead, dead."
Part 3 is Magic - Back to vancian, some variants using Sorcery points and rituals, lists of spells.
Appendices - A is "conditions," adding on things like deafened, paralyzed, invisible, etc. B is Gods of the multiverse and gives lists for 4 major settings: Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance, and Eberron as well as Greek, Celtic, Norse and Egyptian. Kind of cool to hit all of these in a simple, short reference. Appendix C is the planes of existence, and does a new Great Wheel of the multi-verse. Appendix D is a sampling of monsters to use to start, including the mundane and a few bigger ones. Stat blocks for monsters are DEFINITELY MUCH SIMPLER AND BETTER THAN 3.5, PF or 4E.
Small things:
I am heartened that the credits name Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, and others as part of the credit for the development of D&D over the years. There is a more definitive awareness of the history and recognition of the past by the people in this edition is heartwarming (4e almost made me drop the thing out of my hands when I read "going back to the original D&D setting, "The Forgotten Realms").
The humor and attitude, while maybe problematic when seeing it in art sometimes, is great when you see this on the credits page:
Disclaimer: Wizards of the Coast is not responsible for the consequences of splitting up the party, sticking appendages in the mouth of a leering green devil face, accepting a dinner invitation from bugbears, storming the feast hall of a hill giant steading, angering a dragon of any variety, or saying yes when the DM asks, "Are you really sure?"
This reminds me of what the Trolls would say,
and is a nice thing to see from the current WotC people. Overall, there's a lot I like about 5e, and could see myself enjoying playing it in the future, but running it isn't likely to be on my radar. It does grab a certain D&D "feel" that was missing for a long time, but in the end C&C already did it and did it better, in my opinion.
