Troll Lord Games

http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.ph ... cts_id=670

Seems like they are going similar to other basics, 4 races, 4 classes...
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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Too late. That is, Hackmaster has had it's time, but it's over.

-O
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Omote wrote:
Too late. That is, Hackmaster has had it's time, but it's over.

-O

Agreed, there was a time I considered it, there was a time I was excited about Aces & Eights, but Kenzers determination to NOT to listen to what people want and just do whatever and tell you what you want is not what you think until you see what they did then you'll know what you really wanted.

The shot clock turned me off Aces & Eights, just as much as the mandatory use of miniatures for 4e.

The distancing Hackmaster from all its quirks and make it a "serious" rpg also lost me and many others. We have enough "serious" games that are better than Hackmaster.

All being said, I do wish them luck, but my money is spoken for, and in these hard times, my dollar only stretches so far... and it'll be stretching my dollar on C&C 4e.

The shot clock is a large part of what made me fall in love with a western RPG for the first time ever.
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Damn. A&8's is another one of those game son my "to get" list that I keep forgetting to actually "get".

Treebore wrote:
The shot clock is a large part of what made me fall in love with a western RPG for the first time ever.

Keep in mind that I am the guy who liked Star Trek: Voyager better than DS9.

Ugh.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Sir Ironside wrote:
Keep in mind that I am the guy who liked Star Trek: Voyager better than DS9.

What's wrong with Star Trek: Voyager?

As a side note, I went ahead and pre-ordered Hackmaster Basic to see how things will play out and how they differ from the original Hackmaster. Plus the Earl Otus cover is just too weird to not see in print. I'm very interested in finding out a few things about that picture like, What heck is that slug thing? What is in the chest? What about that Mushroom creature in the tunnel?

Of course I do wonder if the follow up product will have some wierd wizard scrying on the two cats fighting the slug creature. But time will tell.

I do not do pre-orders.
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I put in my preorder and am looking forward to seeing the game. At this point it's going to be tough for HM to take the place of C&C and Swords & Wizardry.

I'm with Treebore on A&8s. The shot clock is freakin' cool.

Yeah, A&8s has a lot going for it. The Shot Clock rules for sure. Overall I think the game is a bit too complex for it's own good, but it's one of the coolest RPGs ever printed IMO.

-O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Considering the departure they're taking from Hackmaster 4th Edition, I'm actually curious and could end up picking Hackmaster Basic up. The price for the book is right... the cover art has even brought a smile to my face.

I may wait to see a preview or two though.

M
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I'm interested to see how it turns out.
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MacLeod wrote:
I'm interested to see how it turns out.

Yeah, I likely will too. I will likely never play it, but I am willing to bet I will find rules here and there that I will steal. Maybe even spells, magic items, and class concepts too. Like I may like their fighter class better, something along those lines.
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Treebore wrote:
Yeah, I likely will too. I will likely never play it, but I am willing to bet I will find rules here and there that I will steal. Maybe even spells, magic items, and class concepts too. Like I may like their fighter class better, something along those lines.

That's pretty much my take as well though, who knows?

I'll likely pick it up as well. Like you though Tree, not sure I'll actually use it but I am curious to see what it does.

That reminds me of something Melan refreshed my memory about just a few days ago:

Melan wrote:
RPGNet> Sanguine pulls out of Origins Awards, 02-19-2003 12:20 AM


(Mr. Baugh then went on to write the new Gamma World, and, to his credit, it cant be accused of being nostalgic at all. For the historical record, the reason for Sanguines withdrawal was that Origins allowed d20 System products to compete for their Best Roleplaying Game award.)

Ahhh... the good times of anti-old-school douchebaggery on RPGnet.
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Yeah, I do not miss PRG.net. I am a much happier gamer for not reading their self aggrandizing self importance and expertise.

When I want that kind of thing I go in my bathroom, look in the mirror, and start talking to myself.

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I'd never seen that rant... and I do love Bruce Baugh, so I guess everyone is entitled to some douchbaggery even nice guys like Baugh.

He seemed genuinely hurt when I tore apart his Gamma World game, but c'mon he really bastardized one of my favourite games. And, rant and all; he does make some observances that I do agree with.

Funny rant. I wonder if he had enough tissues to get through that day?
Sure, I hate a lot of games for their approach to certain aspects... such as Exalted... but I certainly wouldn't condemn those who play the game! Craziness.
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MacLeod wrote:
Sure, I hate a lot of games for their approach to certain aspects... such as Exalted... but I certainly wouldn't condemn those who play the game! Craziness.

That's the part that amazed me about this rant. This is as ultimate a finger as you can get from a designer, honestly. All considerations of the cheer illogical stupidity of the rant aside, this seems really unprofessional to me.

It made me laugh my ass off, though, I must admit. It wasn't a complete waste of internet space in that regard.
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Benoist wrote:
All considerations of the cheer illogical stupidity of the rant aside, this seems really unprofessional to me.

Yeah, I'm not real big on stuff like that either from a publisher.

Don't care if gamers rant like this, or even folks affilaited with a company to a degree. But if a shot caller of a company does that sort of thing, they likely wont get my busines any more.

Treebore wrote:
Yeah, I do not miss PRG.net. I am a much happier gamer for not reading their self aggrandizing self importance and expertise.

Not all of the posters on rpg.net* are chuckleheads. I agree with... a couple of people from time to time. Then again, I instigated a huge debate in the 'Do we really need art in our RPGs?' thread. Everyone was agreeing for the most part, so I had to put an end to that. * at least, I assume you mean rpgnet, given that prgnet is a lighting company company of some sort
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Bruce Baugh wrote:
...those who voted for it as the best game of 2001 committed themselves, for whatever reason, to the stance that absolutely nothing worth heeding has happened in gaming since Reagan's first term. This is the counsel of stagnation and death, of nostalgia gone bad, of the failure of imagination.

You know I was pondering the commentary done by Bruce Baugh, specifically, this qutoe. I guess what I don't understand is why is there this idea out that the old is "bad" that without growth and change and new there is something wrong? This crosses all spectrums of society, but I'll stick to RPGs.

If we had uncontrolled growth in nature there is problems. In fact if there is pruning the plant tends to yield better fruit. The way I look at the resurgence of "Old School" is not a counsel of stagnation and death, rather it is simply a pruning of the tree that was planted. Yeah, sounds all hippie and druid like but bear with me. I admire Bruces passion, but new isn't always better and revisiting the old in all its forms is how we learn. The games still bring fun, heck look at Monopoly.

Bruce Baugh wrote:
...My games are intended to support and encourage gamers who wish to try something new and who'd like help in getting from desire to actual play. I have nothing to say to the terminally retrograde...

This last quote to perplexes me, as I figure what game is not trying to do this? Anyway, again just rambling. I know its an old comment from 2001. I wonder if he has changed his thoughts about Hackmaster and I wonder what he thinks about Hackmaster Basic coming out in light of this?

MacLeod wrote:
Not all of the posters on rpg.net* are chuckleheads. I agree with... a couple of people from time to time. Then again, I instigated a huge debate in the 'Do we really need art in our RPGs?' thread. Everyone was agreeing for the most part, so I had to put an end to that. * at least, I assume you mean rpgnet, given that prgnet is a lighting company company of some sort

Yeah, I mean that website, prg is just my love name for the site.
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Sir Ironside wrote:
Agreed, there was a time I considered it, there was a time I was excited about Aces & Eights, but Kenzers determination to NOT to listen to what people want and just do whatever and tell you what you want is not what you think until you see what they did then you'll know what you really wanted.

I haven't heard this sentiment from anyone else, what fan request or suggestion did they ignore?

Sir Ironside wrote:
The shot clock turned me off Aces & Eights, just as much as the mandatory use of miniatures for 4e.

Also, I've never used miniatures with HackMaster 4e. They are completely unnecessary, just like AD&D (which makes sense, since AD&D = HackMaster, at its core). They will be unnecessary in the new 5th edition, as well (although with the awesome stuff coming out from Otherworld Miniatures, I'm seriously considering using them!).

Sir Ironside wrote:
The distancing Hackmaster from all its quirks and make it a "serious" rpg also lost me and many others. We have enough "serious" games that are better than Hackmaster.

Check out the latest walkthrough preview of HackMaster Basic. In it, they explain that the humour in HM4 was contractually obligated by WotC. Now that there is no contract, the humour is out. Quirks and flaws are being redefined to provide ROLEPLAYING opportunities, so that you no longer have cookie-cutter paladins running around, but real characters with a real history.

But best of all, the new mechanics are easy, streamlined and highly realistic - just check it out for yourself. While this still has the classic AD&D, swords and sorcery feel, it is very much an exciting new system.

Sir Ironside wrote:
All being said, I do wish them luck, but my money is spoken for, and in these hard times, my dollar only stretches so far... and it'll be stretching my dollar on C&C 4e.

Ok, but you won't find a complete game (PHB, DMG and monster manual all in one) that totals 192 pages with beautiful artwork that will keep your dice rolling for ages to come for under 20 bucks, other than HackMaster Basic. There really is no reason not to at least check out the preview and see if there's not something you like - that's free.

Galadrin wrote:
Also, I've never used miniatures with HackMaster 4e. They are completely unnecessary, just like AD&D (which makes sense, since AD&D = HackMaster, at its core). They will be unnecessary in the new 5th edition, as well (although with the awesome stuff coming out from Otherworld Miniatures, I'm seriously considering using them!).

He means Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.

Ah THAT makes more sense. I was thinking HM4e because the rest of the stuff was about KenzerCo products.

Always assume that anything that has something to do with RPGs, 4th edition and negative connotations as something directed at Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition.
I'm kidding!

.

..

... sort of.
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Hackmaster Basic Pre-order is in, been reading thru it. Pretty good stuff so far. Anyone else?