Pathfinder RPG destined to become #1 RPG!

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:21 pm

Read the blurb for this:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... &page=2#98

Then think of TSR in the early 1980's.

If history can repeat itself, Pathfinder will be the new #1 RPG on the market within a year or two.

TLG should do something similar with Unklar.
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concobar · Post by **concobar** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:37 am

a lot of people who liked/loved 3e/3.5 are going to like/love 3.75e. I read through the book today at the FLGS and was not inspired but that doesn't mean the book isnt very well done and full of brilliant art because it is. the PF book is probably in the top five for art and layout IMO and I agree with the few rules changes I noticed that corrected flaws in the 3.x system BUT at the end of the day it is 3e.

Content and presentation *****

Artwork ****

Gripes = does not include any monsters but this is minor as you can use your 3e MMs with little problem.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:38 am

I have no doubt you are right.

Just to be clear, what I am alluding to is the big SATANIC scare of Dungeons and Dragons back in the early 80's, brought about by several hysteria pushing groups and 60 Minutes.

It all made the sales of D&D explode back then.

IF you read the PAthfinder link I have above you will see a book that tells you how to advance through the demonic ranks, gain an Imp companion, spells, and other demonic information such as True Names and their uses.

So what I am getting at is if this book was used to recreate the hysteria Pathfinder sales/popularity would explode much like D&D did back in the early 80's.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:05 pm

Um, I got to tell yout that D&D sales exploded long before the "mind altering / devil's game" scare of the mid-eighties. It was due to the massive popularity of a so-called fringe product that brought D&D to the attention of religious groups and the like. If D&D wasn't that popular, the strange and violent images that were presented in the game would probably have never made the news.

Case-in-point, let's look at the Pokemon craze of the late 90s/early 2000s. That TV show/marketing was around before the industry picked up on the mass appeal of the brand. Essentially, nobody complained about Pokemon until it started to become a mass appeal product. The same can be said about the popularity of Harry Potter as well.

~O
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:02 pm

Well aside from all that (and I do remember my sister worrying that I had joined a cult when I bought my first D&D box in the 80s) I for one would LOVE to see Pathfinder toppled D&D's dominance.

Actually I would rather see C&C do it
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:51 pm

I think PF is going to do well...and any controversy it faces will probably only do it good, from a marketing standpoint. And I agree with you, Asian, I'd like to see PF put a hurtin' on WotC, too. It seems to off to a good start, from current news of it selling out its first printing. Only time will tell, despite what some WotC diehards say.
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:09 pm

Who is this person you call Asian?
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ssfsx17 · Post by **ssfsx17** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:33 pm

I may not like 3e, but I wish Paizo all the best! Their adventures show evidence that they have actually been playtested for the fun-factor, and the people running Paizo appear to actually care about tabletop gaming in general.

With that said, I think the devil-worship controversy is not going to be renewed for D&D ever again - these controversies can never strike the exact same thing twice.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:27 am

Yeah, lightning rarely strikes. Although, a few bolts come back for a second strike from time to time. Harry Potter controversies have largely died down. I think there was a lady(in Georgia) who took Potter to court. Apparently, it leads to witch recruitment. Even that was two years ago, and thrown out of court(as I recall). Occasionally, you might hear older folks(who are far removed from current pop culture)still mention Dungeon and Dragon(same folks who probably said Star WAR, or Star TRAK), Ouija board(from Parker bros.), and the dangers of celebrating Halloween, but those comments are very few and far between. The reason for fewer comments, most people have figured out that the majority of kids didn't commit suicide, join cults, or kill people. That said, the remaining two naysayers will find another band, game, book, movie, or tv show to condemn. Personally, I don't want them to completely vanish. They give me such amusement.
Pathfinder in stores already?? Would like to look at it, but as somebody already said...it's still essentially 3E.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:47 am

AslanC wrote:
Who is this person you call Asian?

Yes, I've called you Asian twice now. My apologies, good sir!
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AslanC · Post by **AslanC** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:50 am

LOL!

Bygones
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:56 pm

Sorry but I don't see any rpg's ever "exploding" like the original.

The basic concept is what blew people away, not the fanatic disinformation about it.

A parent forbidding something is a good way to secure the child will want it, but I agree with a prior comment.

D&D and AD&D was a phenomena well before the bad press.

Besides, societies tolerance of occultism, sexuality, and violence has increased to the point that you now need to be a practicing christian that believes in traditional values in order to raise anyones ire and hatred today.

Just seeing what they pass off as childrens material (Harry Potter/Twilight/and even Disney channel for pete's sake!) should tell you that a bit of occultism and the mention of monsters would not even bat an eye today.

A game of gun toting rednecks that cling to their religion, believe in right and wrong, still say Ma'am and Sir and actually ask for proof before changing the realms policy...now that would be truly offensive!

I could see the book burnings already beginning.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:37 pm

Joe wrote:
Sorry but I don't see any rpg's ever "exploding" like the original.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. The novelty of the game long since wore off. Now it's to us curmudgeons to keep the industry alive, but I really don't see the explosion as it happened when I was a kid.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:45 pm

I wish I'd released the book I was working on that had the "mostly official" sponsorship of The Church of Satan -- they would not give direct sponsorship but would allow blurbs to be put in declaring it such and such... oh well. Maybe in another life.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:53 pm

Well, I know I am going senile, but I seem to remember reading numerous times that AD&D took of because of all the bad publicity it got, not because of just being a good game.

Plus if you think people have gotten much less "controlling" since 1980... good for you, I guess. I see people telling others how to live their lives all the time.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:16 am

As long as it sells well, I'm happy. D&D is the big dog, and not even I can dispute that but it's always a good thing when another RPG does well, too...regardless of the reason.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:55 pm

Treebore wrote:
Well, I know I am going senile, but I seem to remember reading numerous times that AD&D took of because of all the bad publicity it got, not because of just being a good game.

The old addage that any press is good press would have probably applied. But D&D did not take off from all the press it received during those wacky media days at all. It was a phenomenon before that. Though, the press at the time I'm sure helped even more.

Here's a little story for y'all:

In the late 90s a kid in Ohio (I think) killed his parents with a hammer while they slept. Many of the new agencies reported that the son played D&D. The local news came to my store in Cleveland Ohio (as we were the only RPG Store in Clevleand at that time. I asked the reporter who said were the only one in the phone book, heh) to interview us about what we thought of the incident. The store manager at the time gave a great interview, but the reporter clearly slanted actual news segment about it to make it sound like gamers were in a perpetual fantasy land. Looking back on it, I see that it was easy for the reporter to edit the footage in such a way to make us sound a little freaky. But the interview was still solid, so I stand by my manager's comments. Overall the news piece was slightyly negative and we all thought that the bad press would at least help our struggling RPG sales at that time... after a few weeks we gave up. The news story didn't help sales in anyway. Bitches.

The worry about D&D being a mind-altering experience had long since faded from memory and not a single person cared that the kid who killed his parents played D&D. Not anybody.

~O
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Joe · Post by **Joe** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:59 pm

Quote:
Plus if you think people have gotten much less "controlling" since 1980... good for you, I guess. I see people telling others how to live their lives all the time.

Sarcasm is often lost online.

My point is that folks ARE indeed still trying to control others. The irony is now the tables have turned as to who is doing the controlling and forcing.

Thing we forget all too often is that they only control our lives as far as we allow and empower them to.

I have my memory of how the game exploded I loved the game in the 70's because it freed my imagination. The fact that my mother found it objectionable was simply added pleasure.
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:31 pm

Well, I don't think we're seeing too much pop culture control these days per se, but we're seeing on over-amount of rules(and sometimes not necessary)in the schools, and against kids(in some cases kid meaning 19,20, and 21). That's all I'll say about this as it "might" lead to topics not allowed on this site.

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:11 pm

I do think PFRPG will do well. But I dont think negative publicity will be a factor in it (at least not a major one). My own books were stolen by a religious nut (my ex-stepmother) in the early 90s and she is still out there somewhere. But most younger players have relatives who played in those days and wouldnt let that happen this time around. I know my niece's books are safe from that happening.

There definitely is a market for "dark role playing". Look at White Wolf.

Bad publicity did help out D&D sales in the 80s and 90s. We all had to replace our books when they got confiscated.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:34 pm

CharlieRock wrote:
I do think PFRPG will do well. But I dont think negative publicity will be a factor in it (at least not a major one). My own books were stolen by a religious nut (my ex-stepmother) in the early 90s and she is still out there somewhere. But most younger players have relatives who played in those days and wouldnt let that happen this time around. I know my niece's books are safe from that happening.

There definitely is a market for "dark role playing". Look at White Wolf.

Bad publicity did help out D&D sales in the 80s and 90s. We all had to replace our books when they got confiscated.

Heh. I came in after the bulk of it happened (1986). D&D players were still getting the occasional odd look, at least in my neck of the woods, but that was about all it amounted to.

I think that the "dark" roleplaying, as Charlie put it, isn't that much of a shock anymore. D&D, and more broadly RPGs in general, will always have the stigma of being a "tool for the devil" but that's so far from the commonly held opinion these days that a devil or demon sourcebook released from Paizo will probably not make much of a ripple, IMHO.
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James M. Ward · Post by **James M. Ward** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:34 am

From an old TSR dude, let me set this record straight.

In 1980 D&D was played in colleges and was printing 5,000 games every six months. I joined the company then, but had long ties to Gary since 1974.

James Dallas Egbert was a 16 year old in Micigian University and he was a lonely confused boy. He ran away to his Uncle's in Texas and left maps of the steam tunnels of the University and lots of D&D and AD&D stuff in his dorm. It created a media BOOM!

For three weeks the world wanted to know how D&D could bend people's minds and cause them to imagine themselves as fantasy characters and "live" the fantasy experience. TIME and lots of other news agencies called and sent reporters. The world wanted to know about TSR and this "game."

Sales went through the roof! The company went from less than a million dollars a year to 7 million dollars a year. TSR got placement in stores like SEARS and PENNYS and couldn't keep up with the demand.

Young Egbert was found by a detective and later he killed himself.

To further the interest in the company a silly woman wrote a book called MONSTERS AND MAZES and Tom Hanks stared in the movie version and once more the world wanted to know about D&D.

Hope that helps.

Jim Ward

CharlieRock · Post by **CharlieRock** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:57 am

James M. Ward wrote:
From an old TSR dude, let me set this record straight.

In 1980 D&D was played in colleges and was printing 5,000 games every six months. I joined the company then, but had long ties to Gary since 1974.

James Dallas Egbert was a 16 year old in Micigian University and he was a lonely confused boy. He ran away to his Uncle's in Texas and left maps of the steam tunnels of the University and lots of D&D and AD&D stuff in his dorm. It created a media BOOM!

For three weeks the world wanted to know how D&D could bend people's minds and cause them to imagine themselves as fantasy characters and "live" the fantasy experience. TIME and lots of other news agencies called and sent reporters. The world wanted to know about TSR and this "game."

Sales went through the roof! The company went from less than a million dollars a year to 7 million dollars a year. TSR got placement in stores like SEARS and PENNYS and couldn't keep up with the demand.

Young Egbert was found by a detective and later he killed himself.

To further the interest in the company a silly woman wrote a book called MONSTERS AND MAZES and Tom Hanks stared in the movie version and once more the world wanted to know about D&D.

Hope that helps.

Jim Ward

Thanks. I always wondered where they got the idea for the movie.
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tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:36 am

Thanks for that story, James. I remember that, and I even own a bargain bin DVD of that early Tom Hanks classic, Mazes and Monsters. I watched that movie when it was on tv back in the day. After seeing it again in the late 90's and 2000's, it's not as cheesy as the 1978 Star Wars Holiday Special, or Hanna Barbara's KISS meets the Phantom of the Park. Make no mistake, M and M is still a prime slice of gouda. That film even featured the Trade Center towers(refered to as the Two Towers in the film). On the topic of the anti-D&D assault of yesteryear... the media (for all of their faults) probably didn't believe the game was satanic, or caused suicides. They were just looking for sensational stories. Much like the stories about "alleged" backwards Satanic messages in songs from Styx, and ELO. What the nay-sayers didn't realize was the at least three members of Styx came from diehard Catholic families who were probably brought up in that belief from the late 40's-mid/late 60's by WW II era-parents who weren't likely to be Satanists. hehe Anyway, I still loved growing up in the 70's and 80's despite suffering some of the naive folks who feared the least dangerous things. *sings* Those were the daaaaaaays!

Post by **Breakdaddy** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:53 am

I never joined a cult like Asian did.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:23 am

People used to get on my parents case about them buying me all the D&D stuff. My folks told said busy bodies to mind their own bloody business.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:46 am

I'm just jealous that your parents bought you all that fantastic D&D stuff. I had to buy my own.
~O
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:38 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
People used to get on my parents case about them buying me all the D&D stuff. My folks told said busy bodies to mind their own bloody business.

Damn. Sounds like your folks were/are pretty cool. I lucked out as well, in that my folks did everything they could to foster my creative side. I had to buy some of my own stuff, but for the most part, they kept me pretty well set up. It was awesome. They were, and continue to be, awesome too.

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:52 am

Attention Stephen, James, Davis, BD, Todd, Mark, and the rest of the Trolls! I hearby suggest we have a dvd projector viewing of "Mazes and Monsters"(Starring Tom Hanks) at next year's Troll Con! You provide the dvd projector, and the popcorn. I'll bring the dvd of this highly-coveted 1980's classic. Besides, you guys love movies like Battle Beyond the Stars, so this movie should be right up your alley. Whadda ya say? It sounds like I'm joking, but maybe not.

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:06 pm

James M. Ward wrote:
From an old TSR dude, let me set this record straight.

In 1980 D&D was played in colleges and was printing 5,000 games every six months. I joined the company then, but had long ties to Gary since 1974.

James Dallas Egbert was a 16 year old in Micigian University and he was a lonely confused boy. He ran away to his Uncle's in Texas and left maps of the steam tunnels of the University and lots of D&D and AD&D stuff in his dorm. It created a media BOOM!

For three weeks the world wanted to know how D&D could bend people's minds and cause them to imagine themselves as fantasy characters and "live" the fantasy experience. TIME and lots of other news agencies called and sent reporters. The world wanted to know about TSR and this "game."

Sales went through the roof! The company went from less than a million dollars a year to 7 million dollars a year. TSR got placement in stores like SEARS and PENNYS and couldn't keep up with the demand.

Young Egbert was found by a detective and later he killed himself.

To further the interest in the company a silly woman wrote a book called MONSTERS AND MAZES and Tom Hanks stared in the movie version and once more the world wanted to know about D&D.

Hope that helps.

Jim Ward

Hey Jim,

I've heard this quite a bit from you, Gary and the crew; but I'm curious what do you think would have happened to D&D had this kid not done this. Were the sales on a trajectory? or was it definitely because of this kid's goofy road trip?

Steve
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