Table top wargaming - WARHAMMER - how is it?

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:43 pm

Hey everyone!

So, as some of you know, I'm a miniature enthusiast who's collected thousands of the WOTC minis, have recently started painting my own Reaper and other pewter minis, and now I'm looking at table top miniature gaming in general. CURSES to an old friend who recently insisted I try a few games he has. He got me curiously looking at various other games, such as WARHAMMER.
Warhammer is the obvious first choice to come to mind, but the pricetag is SCARY. Also the rules are totally foreign to me and I don't want to pay 40$+ for a rule book that I don't know I'll ever use. So does anyone know of a downloadable version of the rules that I can use to decide if its the game for me? I've checked but can't seem to find anything online. All the resources refer me to either the hard cover or to purchasing the starter kit, neither of which are cheap. I also don't want to do the same mistake I did when I bought D&D 3e only to find out a month later that 3.5e was out. Prior to that I had been away from gamng for a while so I had no idea. I ended up laying down more cash for 3.5 books. So is there a new version coming out soon? In other words, should I wait?

Also, has anyone played or currently play it? Any advice or suggestions? I like the WOTC DDM Game, but am somewhat entranced by the beauty of a full out warhammer table top filled with 3d terrain. I guess I'm just a big kid.

I know this is not a warhammer forum, but I'm not interested in getting into a conversation with die hard warhammer people just yet. I just want some friendly discussion/advice from people I trust... YEAH - ALL YOU GUYS! Can you feel the love?

hehe!

Thanks!

...Jynx

moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:57 pm

The first bit of advice is to try and sit down to join a Warhammer game at Gamer's World. They have a large Warhammer fanbase so I'm certain that this might be an easy introduction and way to sample the game.

However, Warhammer is not a cheap hobby if you really get into it!
Just so that you know, the is also a Games Workshop store in the Eaton Center downtown you can check out.

M
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:08 pm

Yup! I know about the games held at Gamers World but call me anti social or whatever, I just don't like the idea of being the noob coming in to play with a bunch of veteran players HALF my age!

I went to the one at the Eaton Center but as you know my french is "comme ci - comme ca" and they are predominently french speaking, and also half my age 'veterans' of the game.

My friend, Tom, which you'll eventually meet I suppose, is much older than I am and also feels somewhat uncomfortable with those die hard crowds. I'll eventually / Hopefully get to try it with him, but in the mean time I was hoping for at least a rules PDF or some such option.

TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:20 am

For what its worth I'm a casual mini's gamer. I play a lot of different mini games including Warhammer 40k, but just haven't tried out Warhammer Fantasy. It looks great and by all accounts its a fun game - i'm just in too many mini games as it is, and need to save something each month for retirement verses putting in games! LOL!

Here are a couple of recommendations if you want to get started.

1. Feel the fear and do it anyway - go to GW Store and have someone run you thru a starter game. They should have the table all set up and a staff member will be able to help you it. That is the best way IMHO.

2. You and your friend go in on the Warhammer Fantasy Box set - Battle of Skull Pass. Split the cost ~60 to 75 buck. But you get a full compliment of Dwarves and Gobbos along with templates and stater rulebook. It is really a pretty darn good deal for everything you get, it will cost you a lot more to buy everything seperately.

3. To same costs, especially If you just want to get just get a rulebook you can go to Ebay. It has starter rulesbooks at opening bids for 99 cents. The only difference between the starter rulebook and the full rulebook is you don't get any fluff with the starter. It has all the rules you need to play. In fact a lot of veterans just get the Skullpass boxed set and don't bother with the full rulebook. It's less to haul around as well. Here is the link, just look for the starter for skull pass.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=Warham ... &_osacat=0

The thing with Warhammer Fantasy (and 40k) is that you'll eventually need to get the Army book for the particular army you want to play. That'll run you about another $25. you might be able to get the starter rulebook and a current used copy of an army book on e-bay for the same price as full rulebook. You'll still need to get the templates though.

Another option is just pick up the 6th edition of the rulebook along with an older army list. You should be able to find these even cheaper on Ebay. IIRC some of the Army books haven't yet been converted over to 7th Edition so when your ready to make the switch it will be just tweaking the rules from 6th to 7th edition you'll already understand the game system as a whole. Plus if it is just you and your friend playing who cares, just play 6th edition.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:26 am

As long as you ignore the official rule that all miniatures must be painted and official GW products, Warhammer can be great fun. Just make little paper counters and battle it out with yourself to get the rules down... then, its just a matter of tactics.
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:27 am

Oh Yeah and one more thing. If you want you can always just try out Warmaster

This is simply Warmaster is on a huge scale vs. the Company to Company fight you'll be doing in Warhammer Fantasy. You can buy the nice rulebook for $45, but GW has it as a free PDF download. The scale is supposed to be 10mm and everything is much smaller - but again - who cares. Just use the minis you have as proxies and have fun. Here is the link:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/conte ... Id=5300011

As a side note, IIRC all there specialist games rules are free in PDF with the option to buy the rulebooks or box sets - i.e. Necromunda, BloodBowl, Battlefleet Gothic, Battle of Five Armies, Warmaster, Inquistor, Mordheim, and Epic Armageddon.

Hope this helps, God bless!

Taranthyll · Post by **Taranthyll** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:03 am

While the GW hardcover rule books are expensive (like most everything GW sells) they are of very high quality. The binding is very tight and the book will stand up to a lot of use. There are a lot of colour photographs, especially in the hobby section of the book, and there is an excellent index, so you can look up rules very quickly. The current edition of the rules is only about 2 years old, so you needn't worry about it becoming obsolete anytime soon.

I've been playing Warhammer Fantasy for about a year and a half and I really enjoy it. The rules are well-written with lots of examples, but there is quite a lot of detail that can bog a game down, especially when you're still trying to get the hang of it. In my experience though, the veteran Warhammer gamers I played with were very patient and never took advantage of their superior knowledge of the rules - they all seemed really interested in helping a newbie player get into the hobby, so I wouldn't worry too much about being the new guy trying out a game at the hobby store.

The biggest impediment is the start-up cost. You will not only need a rulebook, but an army book for whatever army you decide upon, and then enough miniatures to build a decent starting force. This will set you back a couple of hundred dollars to start. The boxed set is good value for people just getting started as long as you are interested in playing either dwarves or orcs. Once you have the basics you can grow your army gradually so it won't be such a big financial hit all at once.

Another possibility is GW's War of the Ring game, which just released a few months ago. This is a mass-combat system for their Lord of the Rings miniatures, and the rule system is far more streamlined and fast-playing than Warhammer Fantasy or The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game (the small unit skirmish game). I'm still building my War of the Ring army and have only played one game so far, but this is my current favourite miniatures wargame.
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BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:08 am

You are looking at an investment of $500+. It also alarge investment of time to learn the rules, play & especially paint the miniatures.

GW Rulebooks, army books, miniatures, paint,etc. are very expensive.

Ive been a long time player & member of several WHFB forums, I know.

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:11 pm

BLOOD AXE wrote:
You are looking at an investment of $500+. It also alarge investment of time to learn the rules, play & especially paint the miniatures.

GW Rulebooks, army books, miniatures, paint,etc. are very expensive.

Ive been a long time player & member of several WHFB forums, I know.

If I really like the game, I wouldn't be appose to spending that kind of cash as long as I had it. The painting would be fun since I recently got into painting minis. I don't have too much time which is why I was hoping to get my hands on the rules BEFORE I invest. Depending on how complex it is, I would be better positioned to make an informed decision. It kinda sucks that they don't have a free PDF or something.

My biggest concern apart from the rules and money, is how the community would take to a non to finicky gamer. I am not interested in games requiring referees to ensure you follow the rules. It's not about competition for me, but fun and from what I've seen alot of warhammer fans are fanatical about the rules.

Anyhow... my friend went out and got the intro box so I'll soon see what it's all about.

Thanks for the input.

Sundog · Post by **Sundog** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:50 pm

Late to the discussion, but miniatures wargaming can be an awful lot of fun and I hope it works out well. GW (do they still call them Citadel Miniatures at all?) are very expensive, so you'll need deep pockets, but there are an awful lot of other manufacturers out there, too. The Perry twins, once stalwarts of GW, do some cracking ranges for Wargames Foundry, and Gripping Beast do simply the finest, most jaw-dropping, heart-stoppingly gorgeous Dark Ages and Mediaeval ranges a miniatures gamer could hope to desire.

Look beyond the Dwarf and check out the wargames press for good manufacturers. Unless you're playing on GW hallowed ground your armies will do well whatever their origin.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:06 pm

Gripping Beast for the win. Simply the best minatures on the market today. Even in the States where Gripping Beast is often more expensive then other companies, it is worth it. The other miniature company that I love a lot lately is Warlord Games. They do a range of inexpensive, plastic 28mm historicals which are simply awesome for plastic.

But this is getting off the topic of the OP. Sorry.

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:08 pm

If you want really good AD&D-like miniatures, and happen to be in the UK (very expensive to get them in the US due to shipping rates and the pound being what it is), then look no further than Otherworld Miniatures.
Like I said, when it comes to Warhammer...ignore the "it must be official or you can't play" crap. Use what you want.
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Sundog · Post by **Sundog** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:22 pm

Good news is, the Pound's been diving like a peregrine for nearly eight months or so now.

Ugh; currency markets. Talk about "much ado about nothing".

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:07 am

Thanks for the info on all the other miniature companies... not totally off topic at all! I love to hear more.

Even though the WOTC Minis may not be the best, fact is I have thousands of them. I've been looking at my collection and wondering why can't I design a 3d battle field and then play DDM with a few modifications. That way I can avoid the expense of buying new minis and learning new rules. After all, DDM are based on square inches for speed / movement, so why not adapt it to a measuring tape? For area effect spells and such, use a cut out template. For attacks of oppurunity, a simple check to see if the mini is within... say... 1/2 inch to allow the attack. Lets see, what else... .

I think I'm going to give this a try one day.

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:55 pm

Some players can be VERY competitive, I hate "rules lawyers". It should be all about FUN. Look for a club close to you that plays WHFB, or it wont be worth it. Clubs in my area died due to GW constant price hikes, so I sold my stuff on Bartertown.

After playing for awhile, you learned who were the friendly players, and who werent.... You just avoided the WAAC players. (Win At All Costs)

If there are GW run tourneys, you cant use alternative figs.

Piperdog · Post by **Piperdog** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:30 pm

Warhammer tabletop fantasy is a lot of fun, but yes, it carries a hefty price tag. I normally couldn't afford to do it right, but a couple buddies of mine foot the bill. One is an attorney and the other a mid level executive, and they turned the upstairs of the two story garage into a game room, with an 8x8' terrain table, all the bells and whistles(town buildings, forests, rivers, etc) and a large collection of each army. They did this because their poor friends gave them the excuse they couldn't afford to play...now their is no excuse! Sooooo, we started playing regularly and it was kick ass. We still use Warhammer tabletop rules for all rpgs; whenever a campaign, say a Gurps fantasy session, turns to mass combat, we bring out the armies and settle it with Warhammer rules. It seems to work for us.

I highly reccommend it, but it's easy for me to say....I didn't pay for anything!
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TheMetal1 · Post by **TheMetal1** » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:50 pm

Jynx wrote:
Even though the WOTC Minis may not be the best, fact is I have thousands of them. I've been looking at my collection and wondering why can't I design a 3d battle field and then play DDM with a few modifications. That way I can avoid the expense of buying new minis and learning new rules. After all, DDM are based on square inches for speed / movement, so why not adapt it to a measuring tape? For area effect spells and such, use a cut out template. For attacks of oppurunity, a simple check to see if the mini is within... say... 1/2 inch to allow the attack.

I say just use all your D&D minis for a Warhammer Fantasy Game. There was a guy at our local game store who plays in a Mutants & Masterminds game that I was in. During one of the sessions, he brings in a bunch of WOTC Star Wars minis which he didn't use anymore. He had originally intended to just give them to the store so anyone could use them. As we played M&M I just started organizing all the minis and showed him that he could very easily use these to play Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K. He had like 3 platoons worth of Storm Troopers, along with enough imperials to make a command squad, and add in commissars. If he picks up a few AT-STs he's got Sentiels. Easily enough for 1000 to 1500 point game.

So yeah, use those WOTC minis!

Here are some other options:

1. Go old school and pick up a used copy of Dungeons & Dragons Battlesystem
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid ... Categories

You can pick up for about $10 to $15. The second edition of the game won the 1989 Origins Award for "Best Miniatures Rules of 1989

2. Go super old school and pick up a copy of Chainmail the original D&D war game:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chainmail-Starter-S ... .m20.l1116
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chainmail-Miniature ... 286.c0.m14

3. The last option though will cost you nothing and will give you plenty of ideas - this is a link to a site that offers a bunch of free miniature rules. In this case I've hyperlinked to their Fantasy offerings as that his what seems to interest you.
http://freewargamesrules.co.uk/index.php?page=fantasy

Let us know what you end up doing. Enjoy God bless and Happy Gaming!

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:38 pm

TheMetal1 wrote:
I say just use all your D&D minis for a Warhammer Fantasy Game. There was a guy at our local game store who plays in a Mutants & Masterminds game that I was in. During one of the sessions, he brings in a bunch of WOTC Star Wars minis which he didn't use anymore. He had originally intended to just give them to the store so anyone could use them. As we played M&M I just started organizing all the minis and showed him that he could very easily use these to play Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K. He had like 3 platoons worth of Storm Troopers, along with enough imperials to make a command squad, and add in commissars. If he picks up a few AT-STs he's got Sentiels. Easily enough for 1000 to 1500 point game.

So yeah, use those WOTC minis!

Here are some other options:

1. Go old school and pick up a used copy of Dungeons & Dragons Battlesystem
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid ... Categories

You can pick up for about $10 to $15. The second edition of the game won the 1989 Origins Award for "Best Miniatures Rules of 1989

2. Go super old school and pick up a copy of Chainmail the original D&D war game:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chainmail-Starter-S ... .m20.l1116
http://cgi.ebay.com/Chainmail-Miniature ... 286.c0.m14

3. The last option though will cost you nothing and will give you plenty of ideas - this is a link to a site that offers a bunch of free miniature rules. In this case I've hyperlinked to their Fantasy offerings as that his what seems to interest you.
http://freewargamesrules.co.uk/index.php?page=fantasy

Let us know what you end up doing. Enjoy God bless and Happy Gaming!

Thanks for the tips, Metal1. I still have my old Battlesystem boxed set from 1985 and it is in good shape, but I picked up a second box at a distant gaming store for $25. Had everything but the two minis - and the counters were never punched out!
I am hoping to get my son, who is almost 7, into it. I was successful getting him into C&C. This is just another cool hobby I would love to share with him. I would buy more minis if he and I decide to stick with it.

Happy gaming,

Zudrak
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Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:57 pm

I was given a copy of the Battlesystem box recently. I don't yet know if it's what I'm looking for... had little time to look into it. However, I also did snap and finally went out and got myself the intro box for Warhammer. What a deal! You get a full color and complete rule book in mini format (all except the fluff is in there - perfect for reference when gaming) and two complete armies. I looked at what it would cost to buy those two armies separately and WOW, it would cost on average 2.5 times more. So it's a great deal and if you get two boxes you end up with something like 2 X 1400 point armies for about 150$. The Dwarven army kit goes for about 120$ alone!

Anyhow... I'm having fun so far. I still don't know how to play very well and have yet to actually play, but I'm reading and like it thus far. And the quality of the hard back book... let me tell you ... WOW! In fact, it is so good I wish all my books were made that way. The pages are thick and of great binding. Very colorful too! I ended up getting the hardback for only 37$ at a 50% sale so I snatched it up.

My dwarven army is currently all assembled and primed, ready to be painted. FUN FUN FUN!

The golbin army will have to wait a little.

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:13 pm

Jynx wrote:
I was given a copy of the Battlesystem box recently. I don't yet know if it's what I'm looking for... had little time to look into it. However, I also did snap and finally went out and got myself the intro box for Warhammer. What a deal! You get a full color and complete rule book in mini format (all except the fluff is in there - perfect for reference when gaming) and two complete armies. I looked at what it would cost to buy those two armies separately and WOW, it would cost on average 2.5 times more. So it's a great deal and if you get two boxes you end up with something like 2 X 1400 point armies for about 150$. The Dwarven army kit goes for about 120$ alone!

Anyhow... I'm having fun so far. I still don't know how to play very well and have yet to actually play, but I'm reading and like it thus far. And the quality of the hard back book... let me tell you ... WOW! In fact, it is so good I wish all my books were made that way. The pages are thick and of great binding. Very colorful too! I ended up getting the hardback for only 37$ at a 50% sale so I snatched it up.

My dwarven army is currently all assembled and primed, ready to be painted. FUN FUN FUN!

The golbin army will have to wait a little.

Thanks for the update, Jynx. I'll look into WH if Battlesystem does not do for me what C&C did for my RPG game - recapture the feel of 20 years ago.
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"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:43 pm

If not the Rules Cyclopedia has nice little mass combat rules, and then Casey is working on a mass combat system for C&C which should see print within the next year.

There are other systems from other books I can go back and find out about again if needed.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:49 pm

Treebore wrote:
If not the Rules Cyclopedia has nice little mass combat rules, and then Casey is working on a mass combat system for C&C which should see print within the next year.

There are other systems from other books I can go back and find out about again if needed.

I knew Casey was working on a system - and now that my son seems interested in the wargaming, I will watch for it with anticipation. I forgot that the RC has mass combat rules in it, even though I bought it just in the last year. Good to know!

Thanks, Tree!
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax