Rather linear and contrived?
After I get over the "wow" of full color art and nifty looking maps I am left with a forced plot and linear plotlines.
I have played in two Pathfinder threads and find myself unimpressed as a player. The plot seems forced along a linear design and it all seems like the same old stuff with new art. It seems for all the detail that when one steps off the "path" one becomes acutely aware of the stage props.
Is it just me or has many new game products taken the "path" or overpriced material, full color pages, and weak in the substance department?
Perhaps weak is too harsh.
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
Is It Just Me Or Are Pathfinder Adentures...
The Pathfinder modus is just that, the "adventure path" model that follows a fairly direct narrative. I don't think this is "weak" just so much as a different philosophy (one that I don't agree with in full - though my campaigns do have more "meta-narrative" plots than others do). Certainly the adventure path design is meant to complement the Pathfinder rules paradigm of being very specific in providing gamers information to run their games - much more controlled and delineated than a lot of others like (I hesitate to use a word like "school" here because of the conotations, but a strikingly different "philosophy" in adventure writing would be correct).
I'm a theatre person, so my CKing does tend towards more narrative arch-plots, though I tend to segue and adapt based on what the party has done.
I would say I think Pathfinder adventures tend to be very well done, from a different game approach. Those who like the complexity of rules approach, where specific rules are given to govern an enormous amount of potential game action, are also those who might like having such specifics in the published adventures. Which isn't to say you still can't steal... uhm... "be inspired" by the adventures or use things you like from them... the d20 DCCs, while not as narrative driven as Pathfinder, also held more linear structures at times. I would say that some C&C mods do to, to a certain extent, like Shattered Horn or Fingers of the Foresaken Hand.... the question I think you're asking is "when does this become a railroad" of players in a game, and whether the adventures themselves "require" that approach... to me, in the end, it's the CK (or GM) that is ultimately in charge of that.
My thoughts anyway.
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John "Sir Seskis" Wright
Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/
High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org
I'm a theatre person, so my CKing does tend towards more narrative arch-plots, though I tend to segue and adapt based on what the party has done.
I would say I think Pathfinder adventures tend to be very well done, from a different game approach. Those who like the complexity of rules approach, where specific rules are given to govern an enormous amount of potential game action, are also those who might like having such specifics in the published adventures. Which isn't to say you still can't steal... uhm... "be inspired" by the adventures or use things you like from them... the d20 DCCs, while not as narrative driven as Pathfinder, also held more linear structures at times. I would say that some C&C mods do to, to a certain extent, like Shattered Horn or Fingers of the Foresaken Hand.... the question I think you're asking is "when does this become a railroad" of players in a game, and whether the adventures themselves "require" that approach... to me, in the end, it's the CK (or GM) that is ultimately in charge of that.
My thoughts anyway.
_________________
John "Sir Seskis" Wright
Ilshara: Lands of Exile:
http://johnwright281.tripod.com/
High Squire of the C&C Society
www.cncsociety.org
I expect Dungeon Crawl Classics to be just what the title implies. You get a simple classic module with a dungeon crawl and npc's meant to be killed.
Yet I don't understand the what an npc's love life or eating habits has to do with the game unless they are purposely designed to be important long lasting non player characters in the plot.
I think perhaps they are more enjoyable to admire and read for the DM.
But you are right. I am wondering when the entire module becomes one big highly detailed, beautifullly illustrated, richly narrated, railroad.
You seem pretty well read with the subject. Are there any you would suggest for "original" ideas and such?
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'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
Yet I don't understand the what an npc's love life or eating habits has to do with the game unless they are purposely designed to be important long lasting non player characters in the plot.
I think perhaps they are more enjoyable to admire and read for the DM.
But you are right. I am wondering when the entire module becomes one big highly detailed, beautifullly illustrated, richly narrated, railroad.
You seem pretty well read with the subject. Are there any you would suggest for "original" ideas and such?
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
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Christina Stiles
- Ulthal
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:00 am
Joe, are you talking about DCCs having sex lives in them or Pathfinder Adventures? Not clear on that.
Also, while I own a lot of the Pathfinder Adventures, I haven't run any of them or read them all through yet to get a feel for them, so I can't comment on my feel for them. In terms of DCCs (3.5, specifically), though, I didn't see a lot of those as railroady. I ran several of those and wrote for 3.
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Christina Stiles
The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com
Also, while I own a lot of the Pathfinder Adventures, I haven't run any of them or read them all through yet to get a feel for them, so I can't comment on my feel for them. In terms of DCCs (3.5, specifically), though, I didn't see a lot of those as railroady. I ran several of those and wrote for 3.
_________________
Christina Stiles
The Misfit Troll Word Wrangler
www.christinastiles.com
www.misfit-studios.com
www.trolllord.com
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CharlieRock
- Lore Drake
- Posts: 1946
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:00 am
The Pathfinder Adventures come in two flavors. The more traditional 'module' style and the more contemporary 'campaign' style.
The Campaign style ones are the ones that go from level 1 to 15 or so (???) and I havnt ever played one (who has that kind of time?). But I do know that D&D3.x was unfriendly towards 'hip-pocket' DMing. In other words, if your team strayed off the plan it was harder on the DM to come up with on the spot material. And that's just the nature of the d20 system. I would imagine presenting a more 'open' , sandboxey style campaign would require a lot of time and work. Stress the word 'work'.
The Module style I have about a half dozen of and ran most. They run just as well as any of the quality d20 adventures out there. No more linear then a DCC or the older TSR modules. And all of them I have been able to drop into other settings. If a gun was placed to my head I would choose a DCC over a Pathfinder (a.k.a. Gamemastery) module but under less extreme circumstances I would be happy with either.
There is also a third version, the Compleat Encounter' line which basically is just a drop-in encounter that can be played as the focus of an adventure or to prop up another adventure.
My feelings are if Pathfinder adventures seem linear that is only because of the system it was made for.
_________________
The Rock says ...
Know your roll!
The Campaign style ones are the ones that go from level 1 to 15 or so (???) and I havnt ever played one (who has that kind of time?). But I do know that D&D3.x was unfriendly towards 'hip-pocket' DMing. In other words, if your team strayed off the plan it was harder on the DM to come up with on the spot material. And that's just the nature of the d20 system. I would imagine presenting a more 'open' , sandboxey style campaign would require a lot of time and work. Stress the word 'work'.
The Module style I have about a half dozen of and ran most. They run just as well as any of the quality d20 adventures out there. No more linear then a DCC or the older TSR modules. And all of them I have been able to drop into other settings. If a gun was placed to my head I would choose a DCC over a Pathfinder (a.k.a. Gamemastery) module but under less extreme circumstances I would be happy with either.
There is also a third version, the Compleat Encounter' line which basically is just a drop-in encounter that can be played as the focus of an adventure or to prop up another adventure.
My feelings are if Pathfinder adventures seem linear that is only because of the system it was made for.
_________________
The Rock says ...
Know your roll!
CharlieRock wrote:
In other words, if your team strayed off the plan it was harder on the DM to come up with on the spot material. And that's just the nature of the d20 system. I would imagine presenting a more 'open' , sandboxey style campaign would require a lot of time and work. Stress the word 'work'.
My feelings are if Pathfinder adventures seem linear that is only because of the system it was made for.
I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Is the art and skill of improvisation completely lost in today's games of rich plans and detailed plots?
It is not the system that makes a linear game but rather the mind set that it must follow such and such a formula. Some of the most memorable and detailed adventures while playing D20 was exactly when the players DID go off script.
Then I as GM was being challenged, both GM and players are reacting to each other and the game takes on a real life of it's own rather than reading narrative decriptions and pushing an artificial plot onto others. There was no one at the table sure of what was going to happen next. Everyone was on the edge of their chair, and it was thanks to zero plans, zero forced plots, and zero full color glossies, and npc life stories.v Everyone was in the moment at the moment.
If the plot suffers when the players go off the published module I can only say that the DM/GM/CK should be more familiar and comfortable with their setting.
The players should be able to go anywhere and do anything without it becoming glaringly obvious that the setting is an artificial shallow shell with only A B or C to choose from.
This is why I like homebrews. Much less fumbling thru books when a player asks a question.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
I find the Pathfinder, and Goodman DCC's, and every single other module I have read to have one big thing in common. All any module can do is give you the big idea around which everything is to be centered. They also tend to give you the most likely areas and creatures/NPC's to be encountered.
I have ran very few modules where I did not have to add significant material to keep it from being non linear or to feel overly rail roadish. Whether its been the Trolls "A" series, Gygax's Giant/Lolth modules, Red Hand of Doom. Rappan Athuk, Ravenloft, Lost City of Barakus, or any other module I can currently think of, if I ran them by the book they would most certainly be very linear and a down right rail road.
So to do it best, a GM/CK/DM needs to look at written modules as what they are, a basic outline that covers as much as possible, but still has plenty that a Game Master is going to have to ad lib to really bring it to life. I have yet to see an adventure cover every possible variation. Modules only cover the basics and as much of the most likely possibilities as space allows and the writers imagination can anticipate.
After that the GAME MASTER steps up and shows why they have such a title.
All a module ever does is give the core idea surrounded by some of the most likely side lines. The rest is up to the Game Master to step up and fill in.
A module does not save you time by writing up everything for you, just the main body. We still have to step forward and fill in the blank spaces with our own spices, and turn what is often a "Ho Hum" adventure into something that players will remember for the rest of their lives.
As for Paizo, I like them best, because they put a lot of little touches in their adventures that make certain NPC's or events "memorable", something most modules have never done, let alone on as consistent a basis as Paizo has done with their products.
When I read their adventures, not only do I see what the main plot line is, but I see dozens of hinted possibilities beyond what is written.
Which is also why I am such a fan of old Judges Guild material. Not that I am saying Paizo comes close to be as idea laden as JG often was, but they certainly try.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
I have ran very few modules where I did not have to add significant material to keep it from being non linear or to feel overly rail roadish. Whether its been the Trolls "A" series, Gygax's Giant/Lolth modules, Red Hand of Doom. Rappan Athuk, Ravenloft, Lost City of Barakus, or any other module I can currently think of, if I ran them by the book they would most certainly be very linear and a down right rail road.
So to do it best, a GM/CK/DM needs to look at written modules as what they are, a basic outline that covers as much as possible, but still has plenty that a Game Master is going to have to ad lib to really bring it to life. I have yet to see an adventure cover every possible variation. Modules only cover the basics and as much of the most likely possibilities as space allows and the writers imagination can anticipate.
After that the GAME MASTER steps up and shows why they have such a title.
All a module ever does is give the core idea surrounded by some of the most likely side lines. The rest is up to the Game Master to step up and fill in.
A module does not save you time by writing up everything for you, just the main body. We still have to step forward and fill in the blank spaces with our own spices, and turn what is often a "Ho Hum" adventure into something that players will remember for the rest of their lives.
As for Paizo, I like them best, because they put a lot of little touches in their adventures that make certain NPC's or events "memorable", something most modules have never done, let alone on as consistent a basis as Paizo has done with their products.
When I read their adventures, not only do I see what the main plot line is, but I see dozens of hinted possibilities beyond what is written.
Which is also why I am such a fan of old Judges Guild material. Not that I am saying Paizo comes close to be as idea laden as JG often was, but they certainly try.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society
Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/
My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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CharlieRock
- Lore Drake
- Posts: 1946
- Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:00 am
Joe wrote:
This is why I like homebrews. Much less fumbling thru books when a player asks a question.
"Fumbling thru books" was all I did with the d20 system. At least while running published material I could take the preperation time before hand to study up the game effects that all their abilities, items, spells, and myriad other bells and whistles did. Even a simple monster like a Shadow had me looking in the books to find out little crud like "Can Dodge be used flatfooted? (Dodge being a monster feat for Shadows)" and "How do you heal attribute damage?" or even other odd questions like "Does incorporeal add a grapple bonus? (it actually doesn't beyond the 50% miss chance but I didnt know that until a Shadow appeared in The Sunken Ziggurat and I was preparing for it.)"
I would hesitate greatly to just randomly throw a Shadow into a game because "it felt right" and the players were moving into their own sandbox of a game. Unless I was familiar with the monster I would have to stop the game to read the (dense) stat block and find out "Oh, it has Dodge ... *flipping pages* ... that won't work if it is flat-footed ... *flipping more pages* ... "Incorporeal", hmmm ... Oh, yeah it's trying to sneak up on the players (or vice versa) what is it's skill???" And that is a lot of page flipping downtime during the game all because the players decided to do something "off the map".
I learned how to GM by Hip-Pocket with RIFTS. I never had any notes when I ran Shadowrun or Cyberpunk. I barely cracked the book for MechWarrior. I had M&M memorised. Even old TSR D&D I could tell you what the progression tables of THAC0 were.
But, d20 ... I still couldn't tell you if an Attack of Opportunity was elected to be a grapple if that produced a counter Attack of Opportunity unless Feat A or Spell Y were in effect. And I've had to flip through the books enough times that it annoys me to flip through them all over again, for the sake of "openness".
Edit: Even the players were tired of the system when you heard groans from the whole team because somebody said something like "Can I grapple his tentacle?" and another player (who, seeing me reach for the Rules Compendium) answers "No, you can't. Just hit it!"
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The Rock says ...
Know your roll!
Yeah, I found myself deleting entire encounters because I dreaded the added time, rules discussions, and long drawn out combats that take up an entire evening.
I could never understand...or actually I understand completely, why it took so much longer to complete dungeons that would have taken a couple evenings with old AD&D.
I have heard that 4e combat takes even longer though I doubt I will ever find out for myself.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell
I could never understand...or actually I understand completely, why it took so much longer to complete dungeons that would have taken a couple evenings with old AD&D.
I have heard that 4e combat takes even longer though I doubt I will ever find out for myself.
_________________
'Nosce te Ipsum' -Delphic Maxim
'Follow your bliss.' -Joseph Campbell