Troll Lord Games

YES! I am knee deep in the storyline of the PC game, and getting ideas for my pen and paper game. I am really wanting the other products to come out now. Blood in Fereldan is supposed to be 100+ pages, so that should give me something to work with. I am hoping set 2 has a little more for level 1 characters too, like a few more mage spells and so on.

I thought by now there would be some info at GR about it, but no dice.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

I ran Dragon Age today. It's a very cool system with a great presentation. It was fun but does anyone else feel like the characters have too many Health Points?

I didnt feel that way when we played. Depending on what the PCs are pitted against the HP of the characters gets depleted pretty quickly. If they dont have a mage on hand with heal it can get hairy pretty quickly, even with the ability to take a breather after combat.

I thought hit points were high, until we played a few sessions, there are very few misses in DA, so the hit points are needed.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!

I just ordered from Amazon, as Green Ronin didn't have any in stock. Amazon had it cheaper, natch.

I think the cross-platform marketing of Dragon Age is brilliant - bang up computer game to get people hooked on the story and setting, toolset for those who want to create more with the computer game, and then RPG for those who want to take it offline. Add novels and it's brilliant multi-channel marketing.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Fiffergrund wrote:
I just ordered from Amazon, as Green Ronin didn't have any in stock. Amazon had it cheaper, natch.

I think the cross-platform marketing of Dragon Age is brilliant - bang up computer game to get people hooked on the story and setting, toolset for those who want to create more with the computer game, and then RPG for those who want to take it offline. Add novels and it's brilliant multi-channel marketing.

The marketing is great. Also the novels have both been better than average fare.

Breakdaddy wrote:
The marketing is great. Also the novels have both been better than average fare.

Good, because I ordered them too. I usually don't go for that sort of thing (novels about a game), but given the fact that they were written by the guy largely responsible for the setting made me feel good about it.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Fiffergrund wrote:
...but given the fact that they were written by the guy largely responsible for the setting made me feel good about it.

I did not know that. Sold!

Fiffergrund wrote:
I just ordered from Amazon, as Green Ronin didn't have any in stock. Amazon had it cheaper, natch.

I think the cross-platform marketing of Dragon Age is brilliant - bang up computer game to get people hooked on the story and setting, toolset for those who want to create more with the computer game, and then RPG for those who want to take it offline. Add novels and it's brilliant multi-channel marketing.

Yeah, there had been many times in the past where I thought, "This would make a damn fine tabletop rpg," but with no luck. I can't believe it actually took this long, truth be told. I guess there was the WoW TTRPG, but I don't count that, as it seemed like an afterthought they just tied to the d20 system. There may have been others, too, but this one seems well done (and if there were others, they're obviously pretty forgettable to me )
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Lord Dynel wrote:
Yeah, there had been many times in the past where I thought, "This would make a damn fine tabletop rpg," but with no luck. I can't believe it actually took this long, truth be told. I guess there was the WoW TTRPG, but I don't count that, as it seemed like an afterthought they just tied to the d20 system. There may have been others, too, but this one seems well done (and if there were others, they're obviously pretty forgettable to me )

I think one of the good things about the fairly restrictive new STL from WoTC is that it doesnt promote a new glut of products that piggy back on the license by breaking away from the core books and giving us a lifeless sterile cookie cutter system strapped on the back of a setting. Some of the old D20/OGL games were fantastic (see C&C ) but most were trashalicious.

Fiffergrund wrote:
I just ordered from Amazon, as Green Ronin didn't have any in stock. Amazon had it cheaper, natch.

The first Dragon Age box set has sold out. All copies are out in distribution.

Got mine from here:
http://www.coolstuffinc.com/main_RPG.ph ... gonAgeSet1

Seemed like a decent price, and still in-stock.

coolstuffinc is a good site with fast shipping and good communication via email. recommend.

I've been looking for news on the GM Kit (screen and adventure) to be back from the printers and ready to ship. Should be badass.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

I received my copy of set 1, and I've given a cursory glance to the rules.

I was far more interested in flavor text.
Here are my impressions (not that anyone cares, but offering unsolicited opinion is the purpose of message boards!).

1) The production value is quite high. Green Ronin products that I've seen in the past all had high production values as well, so this doesn't surprise me. I will say that it's almost *too* pretty because I don't want to crease the binding by laying the books flat. I worry about the durability of the books. Perfect binding (like the Mentzer sets) seems more durable to me in the long run.

2) It was nice to see artwork, fonts, names, etc. from the video game used in samples and examples. The large Thedas map is superb.

3) I was happy to see that the spells largely maintain the character of the video game spells, while translated to a tabletop context.

4) I was disappointed that there wasn't a more literal translation of attributes, talents, and skills from the video game to the tabletop. They don't appear to use related mechanics at all. The million dollar question is this: why have a tabletop game at all if I can't translate my video game character in a meaningful way, without tons of conversion work?

Yes, the game is simple - I like the 3d6 approach, and it has a lot going for it, but I would also like to be able to imagine my Grey Warden in tabletop stats, and it looks like a ton of effort to even get close.

The systems just aren't similar at all. The number scaling for attributes, the armor values, the talents and skills - all very very different.

For horizontal integration and a marketing scheme, this seems like a net negative to me.

5) As an introductory set, it does its job, but I will not purchase sets 2-4. I will wait for a single product that provides the entire game. The fact that there is nothing provided for Grey Wardens in set 1 is ridiculous. I understand the attitude that the honor is earned, not given, but when you leave out one of the coolest things about the video game just to get people to buy the next set in the collection, that rubs me the wrong way.

They are looking to force people to pay $100 for a full game. No thanks. If this is what they are going to do, then I'll stick with PDF or even forgo the later sets. I'll homebrew my own adaptation that adheres more tightly to the video game.

Verdict: As a simple, rules-light, introductory set: B+

As a faithful adaptation of Dragon Age: C

Overall Value: C
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I plead the Fiff.

Thank you for your review. I never got into the game. Thought about it, but some of the fears I had about what DA might be you answered well. I too will wait for the game to expand into more box sets at the very least before I give her a whirl.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Omote wrote:
I plead the Fiff.

Thank you for your review. I never got into the game. Thought about it, but some of the fears I had about what DA might be you answered well. I too will wait for the game to expand into more box sets at the very least before I give her a whirl.

~O

You're welcome. I will say that my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt since I haven't *played* the game. However, over the years, I've developed a pretty good feel for how a game plays just by reading it. I think most experienced gamers are able to do this.

So, having said that, I'm disappointed in the feel. The game designers are relying on use of Dragon Age setting material and spells to bring the feel of the video game, but they appear to have decided that the actual game mechanics don't matter at all toward "feel." It's as if they said, "As long as the names and places match, the mechanics don't matter."

This is the same mistake WOTC made with 3E, in my opinion.

A few other perceptions:

They make the same mistake WOTC made in other areas, too. Their mechanics and examples of play are HEAVY with mechanical handholding. It's the "spot check" crap all over again. Dice rolls decide practically everything. You could play it differently, but that would conflict with the examples they have provided. It's clear that the intent is to have mechanics govern just about everything.

For example, in the sample of play, one of the players decides to see how a bunch of people were killed - the method of death - specifically asking if there were arrows. Now, on a basic level, this is something any adventurer might be able to see just by looking. However, the GM doesn't just provide the information. He requires Perception rolls.

Instead of simply saying "There are no arrows, and the wounds don't seem to be caused by weapons, because they are jagged," the GM requires these Perception rolls just to provide the very basic information in that sentence. When I read that, I rolled my eyes.

Additionally, the GM required dice rolls to see if one of the characters spotted anyone living among the caravan - something a reasonable person might be able to tell just by looking for a few moments.

Perception isn't even an attribute in the video game. I can understand it being necessary to handle circumstances that aren't scripted. It's a tabletop thing. On the other hand, making it such a predominant part of gameplay sort of pulls you out of the Dragon Age feel, in my opinion.

Dice rolls govern the obvious in this game. It's Roleplaying-For-Dummies.

Again, a group could dispense with the dice rolls and just handle it with common sense, but that's not what the rules teach.

---

That's not to say the game is bad - it's not. They just fall into some traps and bad assumptions that make it flawed compared to what it could have been.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I loved the game when I played it, but there are some key points that I agree with Fiffergrund on. Specifically the roll-centric examples of play that develop what are, imo, bad gaming habits for the potential new players reading them. My other problem that he pointed out is the fact that they are REALLY getting into you for cash. Its 120 bucks (retail) for all of the 4 boxed sets, and this doesnt include the supplemental stuff like the GM Screen. I didnt have as much problem with the lack of Grey Wardens. Even in the video game being a Warden didnt give you specific mechanical bonuses so much as cool roleplaying bonuses (such as the ability to sense darkspawn). YMMV of course.

On the lack of Grey Wardens:

It's not so much the lack of rules - it's the lack of anything. In the video game, you become a Grey Warden before you hit level 5.

Not in the tabletop. Not unless you wait for Box 2 before you begin play.

I understand wanting to make it special to be a Grey Warden, I really do. Making it simply not available tends to accomplish that, albeit in a pretty ham-handed way that smacks of bait-and-switch.

But, I'm coming at this from a marketing standpoint. One of the brilliant things about this horizontal marketing approach is that it has the potential to solve a problem that tabletop RPG publishers have been having for a while: how to break into the video gamer market. Based on the success of the video game, a lot of potential exists for cross-platform marketing that brings in people looking for a little more Dragon Age.

However, coming at it from a "never played a tabletop game" standpoint, I'd be even more disappointed when the tabletop game didn't "match" the computer game in some very key aspects.

Wow, for fun, I'd like to translate my computer Warden onto a character sheet. It'd also be fun to stat out Morrigan, or Leliana, or any of the others.

I can't do it. For one thing, what does a 35 or 42 Strength translate to be in the tabletop version? What values should the various pieces of Cailan's armor have in the tabletop version? It's obvious that even in the subsequent box sets, these questions will not be easily answered by someone not willing to do some math and research. That is *lame.*

Comparisons between the video game and tabletop game are the desire here. That's how they want to sell box sets. Because of this, that's how people who aren't mechanics freaks are going to try to *relate* the two products. That's what would make them seem like two parts of a single entity - two approaches to get the same game.

What these people are seeing instead are two sets of numbers that don't have anything to do with each other. Because of this, an otherwise very elegant RPG system is shoehorned into setting material that already has a different system people are used to working within. And this is going to disappoint people and discourage them from further investment - like me.

Can it be made to work? Yes. That's not my point. Experienced tabletop gamers can make anything work. This isn't meant for experienced tabletop gamers.

Imagine if the Baldur's Gate game claimed to be Forgotten Realms, and had all the names, but COMPLETELY changed the trappings that made it AD&D (2nd ed). Instead of an ability score range meaning basically the same thing in both platforms, the computer game used a range from 1-100. The game might be fun, well designed, even great - but it wouldn't be what it was claiming to be.

The Dragon Age tabletop RPG has this flaw, and it's a big one.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I'm not trying to imply that I don't see where you're coming from. I really do. When I first picked up the box I was VERY disappointed with the way they did the stats and skills, because it had NOTHING AT ALL to do with the video game. I played the tabletop game and got past it because of the fluidity of play. Would it have been better to have a tabletop analog to the CRPG? Maybe so. I can't answer that for everyone. I can't even answer it for me since we don't have anything to compare what we got to what we might have gotten.

Breakdaddy wrote:
I'm not trying to imply that I don't see where you're coming from. I really do.

Oh, I know. I just like to babble.
You know, I think that it could be made to structurally resemble the video game while keeping the core mechanics intact. It would just take some time and effort. I understand that keeping more "video game" resemblance in the tabletop would probably interfere with "rules-light" so undoubtedly it's a challenge.

As I have played through the CRPG multiple times, I'm struck by the fact that it's pretty simple anyway. Before I even knew GR was doing the tabletop game, it was pretty obvious that it could be taken there. The armor is a little wonky on the CRPG (lots of decimals) so there's some complex math going on, but it could be made to work a bit simpler while keeping the flavor.

it'd be cool to have skill progressions that can get you to abilities like "Punisher." Maybe they will be - using Stunts, etc. - but it'll end up being a framework laid over the top of something else, when it could have been more direct and easier to relate.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

Yeah I really would love to see a "feats" (or whatever) system with a progression that leads up to stuff like whirlwind attack and punisher. THAT would rock. There will probably be something that adds more of that as stunts in the next box but it sure beats the hell out of me how they will make it as awesome as the CRPG. Its possible that they cant and that makes me a sad panda.

I can see how someone who played the pc game might feel the translation to tabletop was a bit off; fortunately for me, I started with the tabletop and was so impressed, I started playing the pc game. Thanks to BD, I went ahead with getting the boxed set from GR and was not disappointed in the least. In fact, my first read through the rules gave me an epiphany moment of rpg love that I haven't had for a while...good stuff.

My 15year old son and his buddies are wrapping up a CnC adventure right now, but want to start a DA campaign next. I am looking forward to it.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

Wow, I imagine starting with the tabletop is a rarity considering the hype surrounding the CRPG - I can see why your experiences were different than mine!

DA is a very nice game. I'd say it's brilliant at times. It's the disconnect between the multiple channels of marketing that has me scratching my head.

I'd like to hear what Chris Pramas has to say about it. I'm sure he had a lot of difficult decisions to make.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

I read in GR's developer journal that Pramas and Company had to write much of the game before the PC game actually came out in order to time it close together. So any of the final PC game mechanic changes would leave the tabletop game seeming a bit different in feel I suppose.

Still, the mechanics are great in play...and the setting rocks. I am now wanting to see this next boxed set come out. Won't be til July or August though. I hope to see more spells, talents, and maybe expanded stunts.

I would like to see more beasties as well.
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When in doubt as to who is in charge on the battlefield, listen to the man with the bloodiest sword.

I came into the same way you did, Piper, by purchasing the boxed set and reading that before the CPRG. I didn't feel that lacking that some who start the other way 'round feel. I can see where they're coming from, but I fortunately didn't experience the same thing.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.