Swords & Wizardry???

[serleran]

As far as I can tell, Mythmere Games (named after a fellow calling himself Mythmere who was, at one point [and maybe still], a C&C supporter -- I say this only because I find it interesting) is responsible for making the clone. Other companies publish it, presumably under license. It would be like the relationship that Trigee had with TLG... I imagine.
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Serl's Corner

[Julian Grimm]

I'm not sure how Myth has that all set up. I know there is some licensing involved but he also direct sells through Lulu and hosts the downloads on his site. I imagine the Lulu link will eventually go away as Black Blade and Brave Halfling get things more under control.
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[Tadhg]

serleran wrote:
As far as I can tell, Mythmere Games (named after a fellow calling himself Mythmere who was, at one point [and maybe still], a C&C supporter -- I say this only because I find it interesting) is responsible for making the clone. Other companies publish it, presumably under license. It would be like the relationship that Trigee had with TLG... I imagine.

No, Mythmere does not support C&C and in fact, BASHED the shit out of TLG and the Trolls awhile back on K&K. I was sad about that. After that, I had him delete my account there.

He's a great guy who I did admire and corresponded with, but as a site admin there - he let one or two threads go too far.

He also reversed himself on his review of A1 Assault on Amazon. He gave it full marks on AMZ and then bashed it on DF.

I don't hold grudges and hope that I will meet him someday, but I do believe that true information about people (who are shilling their products) should be released and our forum members should know same and then make a decision.

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[serleran]

Ah, well, I no longer frequent places where I know there is no point. Well, unless I wanted to cause some trouble...
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Serl's Corner

[Julian Grimm]

Rhuvein wrote:
I don't hold grudges and hope that I will meet him someday, but I do believe that true information about people (who are shilling their products) should be released and our forum members should know same and then make a decision.

In the spirit of that I want to add that Myth has the same disease I do and, like me, has had a recent go round with it. It is not an excuse but does explain some of what you noticed.
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[moriarty777]

Basically the 'White Box' edition is presently under the stewardship of Brave Halfling Publishing and the regular S&W material through Black Blade Publishing.

Mythmere does some direct stuff via Lulu (POD) -- I very much doubt that option will ever disappear regardless of the level of success that current licensed third parties have with it.

Serl is correct though, it is basically a license agreement which was setup and is by no means unlimited.

M
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[Joe]

Rhuvein wrote:
No, Mythmere does not support C&C and in fact, BASHED the shit out of TLG and the Trolls awhile back on K&K. I was sad about that. After that, I had him delete my account there.

He's a great guy who I did admire and corresponded with, but as a site admin there - he let one or two threads go too far.

He also reversed himself on his review of A1 Assault on Amazon. He gave it full marks on AMZ and then bashed it on DF.

I don't hold grudges and hope that I will meet him someday, but I do believe that true information about people (who are shilling their products) should be released and our forum members should know same and then make a decision.

I thought fanboys were the ones allowed to bash and dis on the forums and professionals and game designers remain mature and professional.

I would hope it remains that way regardless.

I am much more critical of publishers now than i was before, but I also am more appreciative of the long hard hours, and thankless response they get for their troubles.

I have also grown more self consious of the critique I voice. I don't want to be accused of bashing.

I don't like the mega-corps directing the game industry, but the current situation seems almost wild west.

I am glad for the clone guys (for numerous reasons), but I think we need to look ahead for the answer to the dilemna of a shrinking and splintering genre, not backwards.

Or we could just shut the ef up and make games about having fun again!
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[Joe]

PeelSeel2 wrote:
I like S&W, but if I start house ruling it, I get pretty darn close to C&C, so I choose C&C because I have to house rule a lot less. I keep coming back to C&C for that reason, it is the closest of any version of D&D to what I want to play.

Thats like saying I like 0e but I found the need to house rule so I just play AD&D.

Why do we feel the need to houserule?

Why can't we leave simple alone?

I understand what you mean about the need. I felt the same way about C&C when it first came out. Yet isn't S&W based on 0e?

Never played 0e but i thought the lack of rules, wonky set up, and all was what players thought made it special.

I think what we are seeing is nostalgia getting us to spend money, but experience tells us the good old days were actually kind of wonky too.

Does the new stuff streamline any of that or is it preserved?
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[Coleston the Cavalier]

Joe wrote:
Whoever they are they seem to have a certain high quality 3rd party publisher seemingly charmed. They seem to be building up to some big announcement and i predict there will not be any surprises and it will be related.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, Joe. I have a license to publish the Swords & Wizardry:WhiteBox rules from Matt Finch. He is a writer/developer and I publish, print and sell stuff. I have the license as long as he wants me to have it. There is no super-secret, behind-the-scenes intrigue or anything, nor any major announcement - at least as far as I know - to come.

The first license I worked at trying to get for BHP (3 years ago) was for Castles & Crusades: Basic Set. Like many other people, I even volunteered to help develop C&C:Basic Set, but the Trolls have had other appropriate priorities. WhiteBox is a simple, basic game that was dwindling without support, so I picked it up. It is as simple as that.
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[Joe]

I was trying to sound cryptic and the wrong person took the wrong reference.

Thus my confusion with who is who.

But there is an announcement coming I bet.
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[Coleston the Cavalier]

Joe wrote:
Once again I have inserted foot.

I was trying to sound cryptic and the wrong person took the wrong reference.

Thus my confusion with who is who.

But there is an announcement coming I bet.

No sweat. I'm just confused - which is pretty typical.
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John Adams

[serleran]

My thinking is that Joe is trying to not say Bill Webb (of Necromancer Games notoriety) seems to be fascinated by Swords and Wizardry, which is funny because he was also a staunch C&C supporter (and, as I recall, wrote a small adventure in an early Crusader or maybe it was something else...) Maybe that's not funny.

Or, it could be something else. No idea the darkness that swirls outside of serl.
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Serl's Corner

[Joe]

You always like busting my balls serl...don't ya!

No serl you usually seem to see thru the haze just fine.

Now sshh...get it back under wraps!
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[Coleston the Cavalier]

serleran wrote:
My thinking is that Joe is trying to not say Bill Webb (of Necromancer Games notoriety) seems to be fascinated by Swords and Wizardry, which is funny because he was also a staunch C&C supporter (and, as I recall, wrote a small adventure in an early Crusader or maybe it was something else...) Maybe that's not funny.

Or, it could be something else. No idea the darkness that swirls outside of serl.

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Thanks.
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John Adams

[Joe]

You guys don't know what your talkin bout...lies!

All lies!
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[TheMetal1]

Ok, so picked up the Swords & Wizardry: White Box (Deluxe Referee with 3rd Printing instead of 2nd Printing). Love it, great stuff in there. Having only seen and read about the LBBs here and on Arcanum, it is, IMHO, great to get a little piece of history here. My old gaming buddies and I were really digging the stuff in it.

Anyway, hats off to Brave Halfling for publishing it. My only critique is that the box needs to be bigger next for the Deluxe edition! I can't fit all the extra books it. Other than that great stuff.

On another note though, what are the chances of releasing clones of the supplements (I-V) under BHP. That way the original rules for all the classes could be released and incorporated into the game in similiar way they were released by TSR. Perhaps BHP could release them as Boxed sets and include a supplement and module to test out the new classes, magic items, etc. with each. (And of course, extra character sheet, #2 pencil, and Old School Dice )
Obviously the names would have to be changed....

Greyhawk: Supplement I to Grey Falcon or Grey Eagle: Supplement I
Blackmoor: Supplement II to Black Anchor: Supplement II
Eldritch Wizardry: Supplement III to Wierd Wizardry: Supplement III
Gods, Demi-Gods, & Heroes: Supplement IV to Dieties, Half-Gods, & Champions
Swords & Spells: Supplement V to Blades and Magic: Supplement V

[Breakdaddy]

@TheMetal1: The S&W White Box is indeed a cool little set, but for my money, I wouldn't go the route of supplementing it with books that are the equivalents of the originals. The reason is this: once you took into account Supplement I and then sprinkled some of the others onto it, you pretty much had AD&D; which is already covered by OSRIC. YMMV obviously, but I think that the redundancy would be a bit pointless.

[Frost]

My thinking is that Joe is trying to not say Bill Webb (of Necromancer Games notoriety) seems to be fascinated by Swords and Wizardry, which is funny because he was also a staunch C&C supporter (and, as I recall, wrote a small adventure in an early Crusader or maybe it was something else...)

Yeah, two issues included Bill Webb adventures (well, more like "side treks," but cool nonetheless).

[dachda]

On another note though, what are the chances of releasing clones of the supplements (I-V) under BHP. That way the original rules for all the classes could be released and incorporated into the game in similiar way they were released by TSR. Perhaps BHP could release them as Boxed sets and include a supplement and module to test out the new classes, magic items, etc. with each. (And of course, extra character sheet, #2 pencil, and Old School Dice )
Obviously the names would have to be changed....

Greyhawk: Supplement I to Grey Falcon or Grey Eagle: Supplement I
Blackmoor: Supplement II to Black Anchor: Supplement II
Eldritch Wizardry: Supplement III to Wierd Wizardry: Supplement III
Gods, Demi-Gods, & Heroes: Supplement IV to Dieties, Half-Gods, & Champions
Swords & Spells: Supplement V to Blades and Magic: Supplement V

Frog God Games has released Swords & Wizardry Complete, which includes all the supplements.

In their words: "Swords & Wizardry re-describes selected rules from all seven of the Original Game booklets, taking some and leaving some. In general, Swords & Wizardry adopts class, monster, and spell rules from all the supplements, but sticks to the simpler combat mechanics from the boxed set and the first supplement only."

Find it at: http://www.talesofthefroggod.com/index. ... e-rulebook

[Coleston the Cavalier]

Frog God Games has released Swords & Wizardry Complete, which includes all the supplements.

Correct! i did announce some of my plans for WB on my website today:
http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

[GameOgre]

I should post this over at the BH boards but I seem to either have never gone over to the new boards or have forgotten my password ect...

I love The White Box! Love almost everything about it. The almost part of it is with the whole level thing. The use a scale of 1-10. I love that!! Granted I like the 1-9 better or even the 1-12 but I can live with 1-10.

But then they mix in some 1-20 things! So friggin close to breaking the stupid magic user spell issue that has plagued every edition. Everyone talks about that golden time of the 1-9 game when the game really works.

Why bother with it at all. Kill the sacred cow and get on with it! Rework spells and the system we use to get them. Keep the full range of spells just rework them so 1-10th level gives you the full range.

Make the entire game 1-10 levels! With a game like WB it would have worked and been brilliant. The most powerful npc or pc in the game is 10th level! The biggest bad Dragon in the world is 10th level! It just isnt limited by the pc class system!

I really do love the WB game. I just wish they had gone the extra mile with it and placed a cap on max levels and fixed the spells so that the entire game played out durring the best part of the game. As it is now they left the levels 1-10 but left the spells and magic user 1-20. So either you have a mage that is capped at mid level or a magic user gaining levels after the golden range of levels and the game starts to break down. The mage is the only one that can gain levels? Or everyone else can as well but gets nothing or almost nothing for doing so.

BAH!!

[Omote]

Frog God Games has released Swords & Wizardry Complete, which includes all the supplements.

Correct! i did announce some of my plans for WB on my website today:
http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

Great news John! I love those digest modules!!! keep up the great work.

~O

[GameOgre]

In a fun heated debate with my son on this subject now! His whole take on it is that it (needs) to be as compatable with the three books and even the other editions so that adventures could be used for cross games ect..
I hold the stance that it still would be mostly compatable and that even if it wasnt .....you still need to adress and cap the levels so that its foundation is at least a complete game.

He argues that WB is such a game that you don't need to change it. DM's can change or not as they want but my stance is that something that basic needs to be fixed. Levels is about as basic as you can get. Even stats and class are not as core to the game.

Dunno if anyone else if following this but....it sure is fun to talk rpg shop with the boy!

[Coleston the Cavalier]

I should post this over at the BH boards but I seem to either have never gone over to the new boards or have forgotten my password ect...

I love The White Box! Love almost everything about it. The almost part of it is with the whole level thing. The use a scale of 1-10. I love that!! Granted I like the 1-9 better or even the 1-12 but I can live with 1-10.

But then they mix in some 1-20 things! So friggin close to breaking the stupid magic user spell issue that has plagued every edition. Everyone talks about that golden time of the 1-9 game when the game really works.

Why bother with it at all. Kill the sacred cow and get on with it! Rework spells and the system we use to get them. Keep the full range of spells just rework them so 1-10th level gives you the full range.

Make the entire game 1-10 levels! With a game like WB it would have worked and been brilliant. The most powerful npc or pc in the game is 10th level! The biggest bad Dragon in the world is 10th level! It just isnt limited by the pc class system!

I really do love the WB game. I just wish they had gone the extra mile with it and placed a cap on max levels and fixed the spells so that the entire game played out durring the best part of the game. As it is now they left the levels 1-10 but left the spells and magic user 1-20. So either you have a mage that is capped at mid level or a magic user gaining levels after the golden range of levels and the game starts to break down. The mage is the only one that can gain levels? Or everyone else can as well but gets nothing or almost nothing for doing so.

BAH!!

Thanks a bunch, GameOgre!

I agree with the whole spell level idea. I've been playing with a magic tweak where spells are capped at 4th level (clerics) and 5th level (Magic-Users).

Matt Finch explains it like this in the new S&W:Complete:

Before the supplements came out for the Original Game, Magic-User spells went up only to 6th level, and Cleric spells only to 5th level. In fact, if you take a look at those spell lists, you will see that the list of 6th-level Magic-User spells includes one called Limited Reincarnation, and the 5th-level Cleric spells include Raise Dead. These are pinnacle-type spells; you do not really need to power them up any further with Reincarnation and Resurrection. So, this author, as a Referee, does not use the higher level spells – at least, not as spells. Instead, all the higher-level spells are treated as the same sort of thing as creating a golem or a cloud castle, or some other type of magical project that would require doing research, finding books, and spending gold. There are books to be found and studied, expensive arcane components to locate, particular times of the year or lunar cycle when the magic can be performed, runes to know, circles to scribe, and other strange and
forbidden knowledge to be researched. These things are bigger than mere spells that can be cast multiple times a day. For example, to summon a supernatural being, a Magic-User must use the right magic circle to hold a being of a particular name or type, and that requires research into forbidden tomes, which are likely located in a dungeon or ruin somewhere. To “cast” Resurrection (on someone who has been dead too long for a Raise Dead spell), a Cleric might have to bring the remains to a holy place, and seek much more assistance from other Clerics. The possibilities are vast and the author, at any rate, thinks it is more fun to limit
the top end of spell power and switch the high-level spells from mere “spells” to serious undertakings of magic, requiring research, adventuring, and the expenditure of huge quantities of gold.

[finarvyn]

Correct! i did announce some of my plans for WB on my website today: http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

Interesting, and the first I've heard of it. All the writing I did for the WB was contract-free and it certainly would appear from the announcement that Matt owns the rights to whatever I wrote. (At least, I wasn't a part of any contract-signing on January 1st.)

I have to wonder if I have any part in this new direction.

[Coleston the Cavalier]

Correct! i did announce some of my plans for WB on my website today: http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

Interesting, and the first I've heard of it. All the writing I did for the WB was contract-free and it certainly would appear from the announcement that Matt owns the rights to whatever I wrote. (At least, I wasn't a part of any contract-signing on January 1st.)

I have to wonder if I have any part in this new direction.

Hey Marv, I just emailed you about it.

[finarvyn]

Just responded. I guess that teaches me not to deal with people without a contract that clearly spells out who owns what.

[TheMetal1]

@TheMetal1: The S&W White Box is indeed a cool little set, but for my money, I wouldn't go the route of supplementing it with books that are the equivalents of the originals. The reason is this: once you took into account Supplement I and then sprinkled some of the others onto it, you pretty much had AD&D; which is already covered by OSRIC. YMMV obviously, but I think that the redundancy would be a bit pointless.

So the LBBs and Supplement I (and a some other stuff) is basically AD&D and in effect OSRIC. So an addition of individual digest size supplements redos would seem redundant to some.

Frog God Games has released Swords & Wizardry Complete, which includes all the supplements.

Allright, tracking now. S&W:WB is strictly the LBBs. The Core and supplement rules (select stuff) are released by FGG in the one tome called "Swords & Wizardry: Complete Rulebook".

Correct! i did announce some of my plans for WB on my website today: http://bravehalfling.com/?p=301

Great news, on the new S&W:WB by BHP, looking forward to "Tavern of the Twin Moons."


Ok, so with all that made clearer, I'm still for having individual supplement books done in support of S&W:WB. I agree it would appear redundant. But to a certain extent, the OSR is kind of the department of redudancy department. Each providing a niche place for a period of gaming time in the history of Dungeons & Dragons. As I don't have the rules to any of the supplements, I have no idea what was kept in or kept out of FGGs Complete Rulebook (nor do I know for that matter what was in the S&W:WB as compared to the LBBs). To me it is also a means of sharing the history of the hobby. Presenting the supplements as release for S&W:WB could be complimented by historical notes about the "why's" and "why-nots" of certain rules, that were left out streamlined, or added. Plus it is another means to point to the full expansion for FGG or with supplement I to point to OSRIC or LL.

[Treebore]

OSRIC is 1E AD&D, the LBB's are before that, so is S&W, so it is not redundant.

So OSRIC is 1E AD&D books.

Swords and Wizardry, with complete, is the LBB's and the supplements, most of the supplements anyways. I think a couple of specific items were left out due to legal concerns.

[TheMetal1]

Swords and Wizardry, with complete, is the LBB's and the supplements, most of the supplements anyways. I think a couple of specific items were left out due to legal concerns.

I guess that is why I'd like to see the individual digest sized supplement clones come out. But anyway, I've rambled on enough about that. Any idea what was left out of each supplement or changed or added for Swords & Wizardry Complete Ruleset?