EN World: WotC cuts product line

[concobar]

Treebore wrote:
I'll be keeping an eye on this. 4E failed to grab me as a D&D system, maybe it can grab me as a GW system. However, if those are "collectible cards", despite all claims to the contrary, I won't be buying into this either.

I agree. if the power cards are like the 4e class ability cards or not required to play the game then i will look into getting it. if they are random collectible cards like magic the gathering then i will probably have to pass.
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[concobar]

Omote wrote:
Face it, with the economy, and the lackluster results of 4E, the corporation is grasping at straws to make popular the slowly dying brand names of D&D, Gamma World, etc.

~O

Lackluster you say? I am not sure I would describe a book that has been in the top ten best selling on amazon since June 2008 lackluster. Can you name any other RPG that has sales in the same numbers? 4E first print run sold ~2million units and the second print run was said to be 50% larger so figure ~3 million for print run number two. Do you call 5million books sold lackluster? I wouldn't. I know of more groups playing 4e than any other game system.
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[Traveller]

Honestly, RPGs are a niche market these days, especially since games like World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Everquest (I and II), and others provide today's gamer all the imagination they seem to need.

Yes I'm being cynical, but it's also reality.
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NOTE TO ALL: If you don't like something I've said, PM me and tell me to my face, then give me a chance to set things right before you call a moderator.
My small homage to E.G.G.

[Steerpike]

concobar wrote:
Lackluster you say? I am not sure I would describe a book that has been in the top ten best selling on amazon since June 2008 lackluster. Can you name any other RPG that has sales in the same numbers? 4E first print run sold ~2million units and the second print run was said to be 50% larger so figure ~3 million for print run number two. Do you call 5million books sold lackluster? I wouldn't. I know of more groups playing 4e than any other game system.

Those numbers can't tell you the whole picture, in and of itself. I saw an article online in December looking at market share and showing something like a 20% or more drop in market share for Wizards since 4e came out. That, to me, is more telling than the numbers you are referencing, because it provides a context.

Around here, even the most die-hard 4e fans have starting looking for something else in the last two or three months. I know it's not like that everywhere, but my personal view is that 4e is the sort of game that is likely to attract those who will look for the next big new thing 2 or 3 years in.
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"There are two kinds of people in the world: those with guns, and those who dig." - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[Steerpike]

Traveller wrote:
Honestly, RPGs are a niche market these days, especially since games like World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Everquest (I and II), and others provide today's gamer all the imagination they seem to need.

Yes I'm being cynical, but it's also reality.

It has always been a niche market. But the niche is getting smaller.
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"There are two kinds of people in the world: those with guns, and those who dig." - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[Omote]

Comics & Games Retailer reported on someone elses study in September 2009 that stated the market share for 4E dropped 10% since 4E came out. D&D 4E represented 60% of all RPG sales from Distributers and the large chains stores. Don't quote me on these numbers since I can't locate the report, but it was something along those lines. I would take that report on it's own, but at my FLGS, the owner said that 4E is still his big seller RPG, but it is no where near what 3E/3.5E was at. This was in November, middle of the month because we were talking about Christmas sales which made up such a large chunk of his business.

If WOTC is cutting jobs and rebranding with less support personnel, you better believe that sales are down. It could all be due to the economy, but flat sales are still flat sales.

As for WOTC printing in the USA, good for them. I certainly don't have a problem with that. However, that could be a policy of the parent corporation or WOTC division for good press. They may also be worried about theft and distribution over the internet which seems to happen less with American printers/distributers. This also probably has to do with turn around times.

Additonally, when it is stated that 5 million units were sold, I would check sources on that info. It is possible, as I do not know at all, but more often than not unit sales figures are usually kept strictly in-house to keep competetors at a distance. This happens even with the kings of the hill. If sales were spectacular, there would not neccessarily be cuts to the WOTC R&D and we would be seeing more products from them.

I say lackluster for one good reason. I was at that GenCon announcement of 4E a few years ago, and it was very clear that these guys thought that 4E was going to change the face of tabletop RPG gaming forever. There were lots of promises of online presence and RPG activity and they couldn't beat the drum harder about this. Well, it took a while to get those online fuctionalities of 4E off and running (is everything they promised for 4E online out yet?) There hasn't been the amount of fanfare that I thought there would be a few years later about the 4E game that was pumped up so much at various D&D events. At the time there seemed like a lot but, and this is just me saying this, 4E seemed to die down rather quickly instead of exploding at the pace of 3E. All of that being said, I do not think anybody would agree that D&D 4E changed the face of tabletop RPG forever. It may have greatly impacted indivual groups of fans and players, but it will not change eveything we know about RPGs.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[Steerpike]

Omote wrote:
Comics & Games Retailer reported on someone elses study in September 2009 that stated the market share for 4E dropped 10% since 4E came out. D&D 4E represented 60% of all RPG sales from Distributers and the large chains stores.

What was reported on ENWorld was that Wizard's dropped from 75% market share to about 55% market share since the launch of 4e. The report came out around the time they were letting some of the 4e design team go, as I recall.
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"There are two kinds of people in the world: those with guns, and those who dig." - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[concobar]

Steerpike said

I saw an article online in December looking at market share and showing something like a 20% or more drop in market share for Wizards since 4e came out.
Steerpike said

It has always been a niche market. But the niche is getting smaller.

You think one might have something to do with the other?

My actual point is that calling 5 million book sales lackluster is when compared to what? The few things I can find on line with my limited google-fu suggest that at the end of one year 4e has sold more core books than 3.5 did in the same time period. Is this true? I can not be sure since hasbro doesn't kiss and tell but I do know that in the central florida area 4e is well supported and there are many groups that play. The other point about sales slowing down is kinda silly if we are discussing the core books as most of the people who want to buy the books already have them and not all gamers are OCD about completeness like I am.
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[anglefish]

Just clarifying my opinion, which is only just opinion.
I perceived the whole point of the figs (collectible or not) was the toy angle, which they've tried now four times (Chainmail, DnD, Dreamwhatever and Starwars). I wouldn't be surprised if we see this done, again. And my "Made in China" comment was actually aimed at the figs, not the books

From my perspective, the "all in one box game" is actually a step in that direction. If it sold well enough, we'd see "advanced boxes" coming out.

As for how well, WotC is doing? I wouldn't hazard a guess because you can spin numbers any way you like and in the end, it's really about them meeting Hasbro's projections as compared to how much profit they make.

[Steerpike]

concobar wrote:
You think one might have something to do with the other?

Again, you aren't understanding market share. Sales could go up and you could lose market share. It's a better indicator of what is going on relative to the industry.

The 20% drop refers to a percentage of what sales there were, whether high or low. Wizards has lost 20% since the introduction of 4e. When you launch a new product and lose market share, that what those in business call "bad."
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"There are two kinds of people in the world: those with guns, and those who dig." - The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

[Treebore]

I seriously doubt they sold 2, let alone 5 million, considering when they filed their court cases over the PDF crap they stated in the court documents that the whole 3 core books hadn't even broke a million in sales yet, 10 or 11 months after release, and release is the time you sell the vast majority of your books, so whatever source you got those numbers from I would call a lie, even if its from WOTC themselves, corporations are allowed to lie all the time. If they weren't our economy would not be in the trouble its in.

Now maybe they are combining all of the books, and throwing in the novels based on D&D as well, but there certainly are not millions of PHB, DMG and MM 1's out there in gamer hands.

Plus I would still not judge by Amazon sales, much to my surprise I found out a few months ago they are still a pretty small fish in the corporate pond compared to others. Not only on book sales, but electronics as well.

Still, I am sure WOTC's sales are still the envy of every other RPG company still around.
_________________
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Omote]

Steerpike wrote:
When you launch a new product and lose market share, that what those in business call "bad."

Or as I said, lackluster.

Perhaps 4E has sold more core rulebook units than 3.5E, but than again isn't every non-setting book in 4E considered "core?" A real question for honest. I thought I read that somewhere.

~O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

[concobar]

Omote wrote:
Comics & Games Retailer reported on someone elses study in September 2009 that stated the market share for 4E dropped 10% since 4E came out.

I do not doubt that at all. 4E effectively halved the fan base of D&D between 3.x players and 4e players and that is not even counting the players that threw their hands up in exasperation and went to other systems such as C&C or WHFB or what have you. Since the current market share is based on 4e sales and many 3.x players are not buying 4e it stands to reason other games are grabbing some of the market.. 3.74 err I mean Pathfinder jumps to mind on that point. Personally I think it is a good thing as competition inspires the competitors to release better and better products for less cost. Ex, Pathfinder RPG

Does this mean 4E has not been a success? I don't think so, I think 4E has been a massive success when you look at books sold and the current line up of competition including mmorpgs and video games such as Dragon age. When 3.0 was released it was competing against what? white wolf and maybe the original eq? D&D 4e released into a market that is flooded with options such as WoW, D&D 3.x, and a whole slew of AD&D clones plus white wolf and Savage worlds just to name a few.

Omote wrote:
If WOTC is cutting jobs and rebranding with less support personnel, you better believe that sales are down. It could all be due to the economy, but flat sales are still flat sales.

WotC always does this.

Omote wrote:
As for WOTC printing in the USA, good for them.

I agree

Omote wrote:
Additonally, when it is stated that 5 million units were sold, I would check sources on that info. It is possible, as I do not know at all, but more often than not unit sales figures are usually kept strictly in-house to keep competetors at a distance. This happens even with the kings of the hill. If sales were spectacular, there would not neccessarily be cuts to the WOTC R&D and we would be seeing more products from them.

The numbers provided are estimates based off of statements from the WotC boards. It has been stated that 39 trucks full of product shipped for the first print run and 50% more than that for the second print run.

WotC are constantly hiring and releasing R&D people. nothing new there.

And at last count I own 23 D&D 4e core books. I do not own the ebberon or forgotten realms books (4 total) nor will i be picking up the Darksun books when they release if they haven't already. Keep in mind that I am not counting the horde of D&D miniatures and other support products such as dungeon tiles and power cards. How many products do they need to release to convince you that 4E is doing ok? How many more products could they release as at this time they are releasing one or two core books every month. If anything I kinda think they should slow down before my SO skins me alive for spending so much at the LFGS.

Omote wrote:
I say lackluster for one good reason. I was at that GenCon announcement of 4E a few years ago, and it was very clear that these guys thought that 4E was going to change the face of tabletop RPG gaming forever.

It did. The debate is whether the change was for better or worse and that is a matter of taste.

Omote wrote:
There were lots of promises of online presence and RPG activity and they couldn't beat the drum harder about this. Well, it took a while to get those online fuctionalities of 4E off and running (is everything they promised for 4E online out yet?)

There is a online presence and they are working on the online supplemental programs. I find it odd that you would bring this up to support your contention that 4e isnt selling in light of 3.x complete fumbling of their own promised online support. Remember that disk you got in the 3.0 PHB that wasn't in the 3.5 PHB? This is all business as usual for WotC except the 4e character builder works and is constantly improved and updated.

Omote wrote:
There hasn't been the amount of fanfare that I thought there would be a few years later about the 4E game that was pumped up so much at various D&D events. At the time there seemed like a lot but, and this is just me saying this, 4E seemed to die down rather quickly instead of exploding at the pace of 3E.

Maybe. I will admit that 3e saved D&D from the travesty AD&D had become.

Omote wrote:
All of that being said, I do not think anybody would agree that D&D 4E changed the face of tabletop RPG forever. It may have greatly impacted indivual groups of fans and players, but it will not change eveything we know about RPGs.

As I said 4E has changed the face of the tabletop RPG. It split the community, let to the creation of pathfinder, and has led to the generation of endless 4e hate threads as well as endless 4e fan-boy threads. Can you name another RPG that has generated as much emotion, devotion, bile, and out right nerd rage as 4E? I can not.

Omote wrote:
~O

Jim
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[Orpheus]

anglefish wrote:
Just clarifying my opinion, which is only just opinion.
I perceived the whole point of the figs (collectible or not) was the toy angle, which they've tried now four times (Chainmail, DnD, Dreamwhatever and Starwars). I wouldn't be surprised if we see this done, again. And my "Made in China" comment was actually aimed at the figs, not the books

From my perspective, the "all in one box game" is actually a step in that direction. If it sold well enough, we'd see "advanced boxes" coming out.

As for how well, WotC is doing? I wouldn't hazard a guess because you can spin numbers any way you like and in the end, it's really about them meeting Hasbro's projections as compared to how much profit they make.

Yeah, I'm not going to begrudge anyone their opinion and my entire post, in which I quoted you alone, wasn't entirely responding just to you. I'm just too damn lazy to quote more than one poster.
My only question regarding anyone's market share data or sales figures is this: from whence do they come? No offense, but most rpg enthusiasts aren't the most business savvy folks and can't read a balance sheet, let alone find their way through 10-k filings and reams of data necessary to determine true market share or business performance. I'm not saying that that's you guys, but the sources whom you're quoting at ENWorld may not be the best people whom to quote.

For instance, the only thing I found at ENWorld which stated that D&D had a drop from 75% to 55% market share was for ONE store, and even then it was mentioned that the 55% level was more in line with the average market share which that store had for 3.5's run.

Lots of places have been laying off in a number of industries so I don't doubt that WotC hasn't felt a sting from the current economy, and their own layoffs are probably a result of that. I don't know how well or poorly 4E is doing. There isn't any really hard data from real business analysts and there probably won't be. RPG's [/i]are a niche market and I doubt that anyone will be doing any research anytime soon. I mean, D&D and WotC weren't even mentioned by name in Hasbro's last quarterly filing, aside from a mention of Magic.

All I know is this: they've had 2 DMG's come out while we've been waiting for 1 CKG!
Skadoosh!

[DangerDwarf]

DaveyB wrote:
They seem to be no different than a splat book from any other RPG that adds more options to what you already have.

I disagree there.

I only need to buy 1 copy of The Book of Awesome Asskickings to get all the asskicking awesome involved with that particular splat.

With randomized booster packs I have to take out a 2nd mortgage, buy boxes and boxes of booster packs and hope beyond all hope I get all of the particular cards in that particular set, meanwhile I'll also be checking out rental fees for storage space to keep the thousands of repeats I'll be paying for.

Now, this can very well be pointless teeth gnashing at this time. I'm fully aware of the cries of doom and gloom and unnatural angst that 4e drums up in folks. But if randomized booster packs is how they go with this? Ick.

[Orpheus]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I disagree there.

I only need to buy 1 copy of The Book of Awesome Asskickings to get all the asskicking awesome involved with that particular splat.

With randomized booster packs I have to take out a 2nd mortgage, buy boxes and boxes of booster packs and hope beyond all hope I get all of the particular cards in that particular set, meanwhile I'll also be checking out rental fees for storage space to keep the thousands of repeats I'll be paying for.

Now, this can very well be pointless teeth gnashing at this time. I'm fully aware of the cries of doom and gloom and unnatural angst that 4e drums up in folks. But if randomized booster packs is how they go with this? Ick.

Nice.
Yeah, I'm not even planning on getting involved with Gamma World. I was never a fan of post-apocalyptic stuff in general, nor the original Gamma World specifically. I'm not even planning on getting Dark Sun; maybe if I thumb through it, it looks cool enough, and the little 4e group that I've managed to scrounge up stays together long enough to want to try something new.

Really, I'm just happy with the core set (the 3 book set), the Eberron books and getting the Goodman Games modules from RPGNow.com. Beyond that, I'm really only interested in picking up the current and future PHB's, MM's, and DMG's, and Underdark. Even those can wait; I can only play so much at once.
Personally, I wish that they would redo Al-Qadim, but fat chance of that...

[serleran]

I will look at a new Gamma World, but I gave up on the game with the 4th edition of it. It would need to be awe-inspiring for me to want to buy it.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

[DangerDwarf]

Oh, and I almost forgot to add my obligatory anti-Sar Wars comment.

Of course they dropped the license. Star Wars sucks.

Well, maybe not total suckage. But it is definitely overrated. Highly.

[concobar]

Orpheus wrote:
Personally, I wish that they would redo Al-Qadim, but fat chance of that...

At the rate they are releasing books i wouldnt count anything out.

I am hoping for a Greyhawk campaign set but /shrugs..

Oh and I agree with DD. If it is random collectible cards I am out. Cant do the MtG thing again.
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[DangerDwarf]

concobar wrote:
I am hoping for a Greyhawk campaign set but /shrugs..

That and Dragonlance would be kick ass to me.

[Orpheus]

concobar wrote:
At the rate they are releasing books i wouldnt count anything out.

I am hoping for a Greyhawk campaign set but /shrugs..

Oh and I agree with DD. If it is random collectible cards I am out. Cant do the MtG thing again.

At the risk of having someone show up in Renton with an underwear bomb, I'm counting it out.
I wouldn't mind seeing Greyhawk in 4e, but I would prefer something less sacred to old schoolers yet familiar. Al-Qadim would fit the bill for me, and that was the richest of the 2nd Edition settings in my opinion.

[Orpheus]

concobar wrote:
Oh and I agree with DD. If it is random collectible cards I am out. Cant do the MtG thing again.

This is one of the reasons that I haven't gotten all too into the plastic mini's. They're very cool, but I don't care about having a random pack. I have a few, and I like the idea behind the PHB series of mini's, but we're just using Fiery Dragon counters and paper mini's for the most part.

I quit playing Magic after two months because of the arms race inherent in the game.

[DangerDwarf]

Orpheus wrote:
but we're just using Fiery Dragon counters and paper mini's for the most part.

How are the quality of these? I keep eyeballing them but cant decide.

[Orpheus]

DangerDwarf wrote:
How are the quality of these? I keep eyeballing them but cant decide.

Very nice! I highly recommend them as opposed to racking up on miniatures. By all means, build up your mini collection if it so suits you, but I can actually have an encounter using counters with the actual monsters that the PC's are fighting upon them. No more, "yeah, the clone trooper is really a wizard." Plus, for Eberron, there is a site that has some for warforged and other Eberron specific monsters/races so I can fit those into my Eberron game. 'Cause really, that's all I'm playing anyway, Eberron.

[Orpheus]

DangerDwarf wrote:
Oh, and I almost forgot to add my obligatory anti-Sar Wars comment.

Of course they dropped the license. Star Wars sucks.

Well, maybe not total suckage. But it is definitely overrated. Highly.

I picked up the Saga core rules and Scum and Villainy, along with the screen and a few mini's. I really liked this version of Star Wars RPG, and I hoped that it was going back to the way the WEG used to do it with unexplored areas and not just a rehashing of stated canon from the movies. The newer stuff like Galaxy of Intrigue and especially The Unknown Regions looked really good.

Alas, DangerDwarf, your Dark Side-tuned barrage of Star Wars hate has won out.

We'll be back...

[DaveyB]

DangerDwarf wrote:
I disagree there.

I only need to buy 1 copy of The Book of Awesome Asskickings to get all the asskicking awesome involved with that particular splat.

With randomized booster packs I have to take out a 2nd mortgage, buy boxes and boxes of booster packs and hope beyond all hope I get all of the particular cards in that particular set, meanwhile I'll also be checking out rental fees for storage space to keep the thousands of repeats I'll be paying for.

Now, this can very well be pointless teeth gnashing at this time. I'm fully aware of the cries of doom and gloom and unnatural angst that 4e drums up in folks. But if randomized booster packs is how they go with this? Ick.

Point taken. That being said, I see no reason one couldn't just buy the main Gamma World set and call it a day. Yeah, other players that buy the card packs will have cooler mutations and tech, but so what. Just use the core book and cards and have at it!

It just follows in the vein of Wizards' new business model, the Magic: The Gathering model; where-in they release Incomplete Product #1 and then go on to release "Incomplete Product #2" to complete the options presented in Incomplete Product #1 they released the year previous; all the while introducing new options in Incomplete Product #2 so that you will eventually have to buy Incomplete Product #3 to complete, rinse repeat ad nauseum.....

Hence that's why it took two PHB's to get 95% of the classes you got from your original 3.x PHB and will take a third PHB to get the monk to complete all of what you got from one book in past editions. It is not something I agree with and it's why I have stopped buying Wizards' books and have turned to C&C as my go-to game.

[DaveyB]

Orpheus wrote:
Nice.
Yeah, I'm not even planning on getting involved with Gamma World. I was never a fan of post-apocalyptic stuff in general, nor the original Gamma World specifically. I'm not even planning on getting Dark Sun; maybe if I thumb through it, it looks cool enough, and the little 4e group that I've managed to scrounge up stays together long enough to want to try something new.

Really, I'm just happy with the core set (the 3 book set), the Eberron books and getting the Goodman Games modules from RPGNow.com. Beyond that, I'm really only interested in picking up the current and future PHB's, MM's, and DMG's, and Underdark. Even those can wait; I can only play so much at once.
Personally, I wish that they would redo Al-Qadim, but fat chance of that...

As someone who owns Underdark, I can say that it's a pretty good book, but it does feel incomplete. It has some really nice ideas, but it feels like they ran out of time by the end of the book, as it gets weaker in the latter couple of chapters. I also hope you like Torog, as you'll be reading about him A LOT in this book. If the book were say, the size of Open Grave, 224 pages, it would've been better and would've allowed for more unique locations, ideas, and room to flesh out the Feydark and Shadowdark. All told though, it's not bad, but not worth $29.95. Get it on discount if you can.

[nightstorm]

They're ending Star Wars? Is it just me or is that a school of sharks circling around WOTC's bloody corpse?
_________________
Nightstorm: So tell me something about your elf.

Zippo: He's an elf. He lives in the woods.

Nightstorm: Did you hear that Gary? "His elf lives in the woods"

[Treebore]

nightstorm wrote:
They're ending Star Wars? Is it just me or is that a school of sharks circling around WOTC's bloody corpse?

Only if Hasbro shuts them down.
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Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

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[Orpheus]

Treebore wrote:
Only if Hasbro shuts them down.

Hasbro would probably just sell WotC off. They're not going to write off an entire subsidiary's assets and shut them down just like that (and really, they can't).

Besides, they're just dropping one line while they're expanding another. It seems to me that the cost of the licensing fee wasn't an easy enough of an overhead cost that could be absorbed by the profits that they felt that they could make from the Star Wars line.

I like the little bit of Star Wars stuff that I have, but I was more disappointed that they never had any adventures for the line besides what seeds were in the sourcebooks and the Dawn of Defiance campaign on their site. That was one of the best things about the old WEG version.