1e DMG Appendix A question

dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:24 pm

Since several people here are veteran gamers and have met EGG in person, I have a question. In the Random Dungeon Generator (Appendix A), the difference between Rooms and Chambers is never defined. Does anyone know what the difference is?

If I read dictionary.com correctly, a chamber has doors and a room doesn't. However, I'd like to know what the official rule was. 1980 was a long time ago, and I can't remember.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:20 am

Well, I met Mr. Gygax several times and the question never dawned on me to ask. But the question is, after all of these years and all of the insight that Mr. Gygax gave us about the 1E game, I've never heard or seen one person ask this; why is it important to know at this point?

~O
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:54 am

If you look at Table II: Doors, you'll see that the space beyond a door can result in either a Room or a Chamber. If a Door leads to a Room, then the Room has a door; the same goes for a Chamber. Therefore, the "subtle distinction" made about a Chamber not having Doors is impossible. Logically, the system would indicate there is no difference but I go even slightly more subtle -- a Room is manufactured, crafted out of the natural terrain whereas a Chamber is the natural terrain, untouched by the tools of crafting (except to add doors.)
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:16 am

You know Serl, I have no idea if your right or wrong, but I am going to go with it. At least it makes sense to me. Makes more sense to me than dictionary.com, thats for sure.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:23 am

The difference being, a creature without opposable thumbs can get into a room/chamber without doors.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:47 pm

I think it is one of size. Rooms tend to be smaller on the chart whereas chambers tend to be larger. (if memory serves)

In straight definition, the difference seems to be one of function or as part of a series of interconnected rooms with a single entry point from outside of them, such as the queen's chambers.
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dachda · Post by **dachda** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:05 pm

If a chamber is without doors and a room has doors, I read that as a chamber can have entrances/exits like open arches, therefore no doors which can be closed. While a room has entrances/exits with doors which can be closed.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:41 pm

After my "extensive research" () it seems that a chamber is an enclosed area - and I notice that a bedroom is often used as an axample, or additioonal definition. So I agree with serl - a chamber is probably a room that has an entrance and no additional ingress or egress. If it has multiple means of entry and exit, then it's classified as a "room." YMMV.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:13 pm

[quote="Lord Dynel"]a chamber is probably a room that has an entrance and no additional ingress or egress. If it has multiple means of entry and exit, then it's classified as a "room." YMMV.[/quote]

Unfortunately that doesn't hold true in all cases. A council chamber such as at city hall has multiple ingress/egress points. A chamber is a gathering place...so a room such as a great hall or audience chamber are more in line with the actual definition. It is not a function of ingress/egress but by definition, usage.

Arguably, the definition between room and chamber has few differences which is why I was postulating that per the tables in the generator, the difference was based on assumed size. I believe the largest room size is 40-feet, whereas the largest chamber size was 100-feet or more. Unfortunately my 1st ed DMG is packed away beyond reach for referenct.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:05 pm

Sure, size / scope could be another distinction between chamber and room, though it most definitely is not whether there is a door.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:42 pm

Being a guy, I find that most things have to do with size.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:39 pm

Go0gleplex wrote:
Unfortunately that doesn't hold true in all cases. A council chamber such as at city hall has multiple ingress/egress points. A chamber is a gathering place...so a room such as a great hall or audience chamber are more in line with the actual definition. It is not a function of ingress/egress but by definition, usage.

Arguably, the definition between room and chamber has few differences which is why I was postulating that per the tables in the generator, the difference was based on assumed size. I believe the largest room size is 40-feet, whereas the largest chamber size was 100-feet or more. Unfortunately my 1st ed DMG is packed away beyond reach for referenct.

I don't think size is the deciding factor, either, though. A judge's chamber, for instance, is not usually terribly large, and there is usually one entrance/exit for it (I've been in a few back when I had a county job).

Though maybe you are on to something, Go0gle, with the function, but I don't know for sure. And I'm not completely convinced it's doesn't have something to do with the means if ingress/egress. At least until we unearth something more concrete.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:11 pm

OK, so maybe room and chamber are simply interchangeable? Maybe one comes from the English and the other comes from the French or German?
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Traveller · Post by **Traveller** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:32 pm

I went to wikipedia, and putting in "chamber" into the search pulled up "room". Imagine that. I believe the difference is solely the size, since what was in the DMG was copied verbatim from the attending article in The Strategic Review/Dragon Magazine.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:36 pm

Sounds good to me guys.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:47 pm

I was just wondering why EGG made such a big difference between Rooms and Chambers in the tables. It never made sense to me, and it was startng to bug me.
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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:01 pm

I think it was simply a way to keep the tables to a reasonable number of entries per table.
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Deogolf · Post by **Deogolf** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:24 pm

I guess if either one has a monster that can kill my character I really don't care. Just as long as it has money and cool, neat-o magic items in it!
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:47 pm

I am a notorious tightwad in my campaigns. I remember one time, when their characters found a magic item, the players actually did the 'happy dance'.

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Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:42 pm

generally in my games...when they find a magic item, it is because it has been used against them.
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Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:51 am

Go0gleplex wrote:
generally in my games...when they find a magic item, it is because it has been used against them.

Exactly. One of my pet peeves is the room with the BBEG or whoever (just anywhere with some bad folk) and some magical treasure in a box behind them. They could've used that stuff to kick some ass, but noooo.....
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:25 am

It might be in that box because they can't use it. What's worse, a box of treasure the evil bag guy used and the players cannot (because they're dead), or a box of treasure they can use (after they killed the thing with it and keep adventuring)? Me, I'm going to go with option 2 (that way the party gets some stuff they struggled to win and feel all empowered until the next big nasty beats them down, and then they get better stuff...)-- all those treasure items need to enter the game at some point, or there's no need to have them as treasure. Same thing with spells and monsters. I might not like all of them, and I might only use them once every thirteen years, but damnit, I wanna know what it's like to have a nine-live's stealer (for example) and if it cannot ever be found, might as well just black it out with a Sharpie.

Now, none of the above means the treasure should be "easy" to get.
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dutch206 · Post by **dutch206** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:50 am

I tend to feel it is cheating as a GM to give the BBEG single-use items as treasure and then use them in the combat. It's like, well, he DID have treasure....
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