Gonna Play OSRIC Tonight...

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Gonna Play OSRIC Tonight...

Post by Joe »

Hi All in All,

I will be playing OSRIC for the first time tonight.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is the exact same thing as 1st Ed AD&D correct?

Then my next question should be obvious...
Why are we not just playing the real deal? whats the difference?

Does OSRIC actually cost money or is it a free web thing?

So anyway, I figure if the DM wants to go Old school then I can go old school too...

I put my character on a 3x5 card.
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Post by Treebore »

ITs 1E but its presentation and explanations of rules are much better done. So take your 1E books along.
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Post by serleran »

I don't understand this ongoing debate that the OAD&D rules are difficult to follow-- were we not all (for the most part) enjoying them at around the age of 10-15? Did those who play then get more stupid as they aged?
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Post by GoOrange »

It's not quite the same thing, but as close as you'll get. The rules are available to download online for free and you can purchase soft and hardcover versions if you'd like from lulu.com.

The changes between 1e and OSRIC are fairly insignificant, mostly just rules clarifications and more straightforward wording. Many of the numbers have been tweaked slightly to avoid legal troubles, like slightly different xp values and different thief skill percentages.

You probably aren't playing the real deal because someone lost their copies of the original 1e books and the new version is free to download.

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Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:
I don't understand this ongoing debate that the OAD&D rules are difficult to follow-- were we not all (for the most part) enjoying them at around the age of 10-15? Did those who play then get more stupid as they aged?

No, its just a matter of reading through your old AD&D rule books and realizing their layout and writing can use a lot of improvement, and then reading OSRIC and seeing that is largely what they did.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Joe »

Yeah, I don't understand the deal either Serl.

I remember having rules memorized and hardly ever having to reference them. (That was many brain cells ago!)

Now I have a new book I actually need to use the table of context.

Unlike some gamers, I have very little time to pour over versions, and rules sets.

I also know exactly where to look for stuff in the original. I find myself flipping around in a spiral bound job, instead of going to the pages I have flipped to for 30+ years.

I must admit though...I have not missed the matrixes.

Thats ok, I now have a plastic covered, spiral bound protector for my original PHB just in case someone spills a Big Gulp again. My C&C PHB was subjected to such atrocity just a while ago.

I will never understand why someone thinks they need a 5 gallon cup on top of a flimsy table, with a bunch of expensive books, when we have a frig, and open access to more drinks.

Do they never want to ever have to leave the table? Or do they just get off on the tsunami that results from the INEVITABLE spill?!?!?

The Reaper minis hold their ground but the cheap wotc stuff made by Chinese political prisoners look like fish food as they pass by on their way to the floor.

Chile...Thailand watch out!!!! Oh there went Greyhawk and the entire Flanaess. No problem dude, ancient collector maps can be easily replaced.
No problem dude...I'll just spend another 20 bucks on a new one...correction, 25 bucks now.

Why are my dice sticky for the rest of the night?

Why am I the one getting arrested for murder? I did everyone a favor...
Hello!!!

In a world of idgits and their Big Gulps, I am glad for such appended aids.

I am sure it will pay for itself some day.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
No, its just a matter of reading through your old AD&D rule books and realizing their layout and writing can use a lot of improvement, and then reading OSRIC and seeing that is largely what they did.

No, I can't agree with you on that, sorry. The layout is one thing, maybe... and that is a stretch. I mean, RPG Gods forbid that the Player Material is separate from the DM Material. Certainly some sections within the books seem segregated, too, but that just means you read it all... or you make it up. I'm a fan of making it up. But, I started with the DMG as the only book I had.

And, to say the writing needs to be cleaned up... well, I'll not respond to that blasphemy.
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Post by Joe »

HERE!!! HERE!!!

E.G.G (RIP) was the shiznit!

Whoever says any different does not know their dweomer from a hole in the ground.

All hail the King!

But the matrices...really???

Not feeling that warm fuzzy nostalia there.

My eyes already hurt and I haven't even arrived at the game yet.
Good news is, the campaign premise sounds really cool!
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Post by TheMetal1 »

Joe wrote:
Thats ok, I now have a plastic covered, spiral bound protector for my original PHB just in case someone spills a Big Gulp again. My C&C PHB was subjected to such atrocity just a while ago.I will never understand why someone thinks they need a 5 gallon cup on top of a flimsy table, with a bunch of expensive books, when we have a frig, and open access to more drinks.

Do they never want to ever have to leave the table? Or do they just get off on the tsunami that results from the INEVITABLE spill?!?!?

The Humanity!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA

(of course, you could always use the sound track from this and insert your own recreated images of the Big Gulp disaster of 2010)

Doesn't anyone even care that this happened!

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Post by DangerDwarf »

I once played Hungry Hungry Hippo with a kid named Osric.

It wasn't very exciting.

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Post by Hrolfgar »

I played Osric, in a school play once. I didn't remember my lines very well.
Quote:
don't understand this ongoing debate that the OAD&D rules are difficult to follow-- were we not all (for the most part) enjoying them at around the age of 10-15? Did those who play then get more stupid as they aged?

I hope not, because I was a pretty dumb kid. I started with the white box set , greyhawk ,and blackmoor supplements. I didn't have too much trouble learning the game back then.

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Post by sieg »

serleran wrote:
I don't understand this ongoing debate that the OAD&D rules are difficult to follow-- were we not all (for the most part) enjoying them at around the age of 10-15? Did those who play then get more stupid as they aged?

+1

...though as with others I don't miss the matrixes. Some people seem to think there was some sort of grand intricate design with each number in the matrixes and any deviation destroys the meaning of the game. I asked Gary about this once and he just laughed and said they just put the numbers in that sounded good at the time. No grand formula, no intricate meaning...just what looked good.

OSRIC as a publishing vehicle for 1E modules/supplements does its job just fine IMO...though why you can't get a C&C product and just inverse the AC escapes me. As a game system, it takes some liberties with the initiative system, removes Psionics, Monks & Bards, Weapon vs AC, and a few little minor bits and bobs.

Now, to be fair if the above isn't a problem to you then its pretty much 1E as is. But then, just buy 1E right?
...though I do find it funny that a lot of criticism of OSRIC comes from the fact that OSRIC isn't "1E enough". Which is hilarious for those who were in the original playtestt of C&C since the OSRIC guys created OSRIC because they claimed Castles & Crusades wasn't "1E enough".
Just goes to show that we gamers can be a cranky lot.
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Post by Joe »

NOT THE AD&D I remember playing.

For that C&C still hit the mark closer IMHO.

Well apparently my 3x5 card was inefficient for our needs. Even though I played with 3x5 cards with the original I quickly found that there were entire character sheets and matrix numbers that need to be tracked.

I remember rolling my dice and telling my DM what I got. (Like every other frpg I have ever played in my life) Then he glanced at his screen and told me if I hit or not. I guess that responsibility has been handed off to each individual player. Thats exactly what I want as a player is more tracking responsibilty. It takes my mind off the annoying habit of roleplaying unique personalities.

It has been my experience with games lately that if you write a rule, the gamers of today will follow the rule as written, even when the rule clearly slows down play and reduces the fun factor. The more clearly that rule is asserted and expressed, the more that will follow the rule as written. Last night I learned about all sorts of rules that groups in the past must have breezed over.

In the past, these rules were adapted, lifted, and ignored as they fit or did not fit in the game. I have learned that I apparently did not memorize enough rules as a kid.

I felt at more of a loss than the new guy fresh to frpgs.

I thought I would be coming home and instead I was in a foreign house.

Not all was bad though. Like I said, the DM pulled off a good game.

The initiative was interesting. Not sure if it was RAW but if I know my DM it was. I actually found that a fresh element that seemed to work well.
But it definately was not the AD&D I remember as a kid that freed my mind and set me on a course of imagination and fantasy.

Instead of going home...I went somewhere else.
I guess I will take my 3x5 cards and my old worn dice and just hang them up.
If I am going to be able to play "Old School" I guess I better get with the times.
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Post by Treebore »

When I "went back" to 1E, I too played it RAW, and it gave me a very different feeling as well. Back when I used to play 1E we ignored a LOT of what was in the books, starting with initiative, racial class limitations, racial level limitations, and the list goes on.

I still remember everyone refering to the hit and save tables all of the time, though, even back the first time around.
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Post by Joe »

Did each player refer to a table, or did the DM look at his screen with the tables and tell you if you hit or not?

My opinion today is if you don't care if they follow RAW or not then that needs to be clear in the wording. "As determined by GM" will suffice for that.

If I may lift a phrase from Wulfgarn,I like rules light, not rules non-existent. It is possible to write a rule and in that rule leave it up to the GM.

If you write a rule and just assume it will be interpreted with this in mind you are opening up for rules lawyers.

Then again, if you don't care how each group interprets the play style then why write the rule in the first place?

I don't think "every Player Must Track Their Own Matrice" is a rule in AD&D. It's just how the GM interprets the game being played...I hope!

Then I must ask, why do you own a DM screen if your not going to refer to it?

Maybe we just need 5 player screens instead...can you imagine?!?!

The Humanity!!!
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Post by Treebore »

Joe wrote:
Did each player refer to a table, or did the DM look at his screen with the tables and tell you if you hit or not?

My opinion today is if you don't care if they follow RAW or not then that needs to be clear in the wording. "As determined by GM" will suffice for that.

If I may lift a phrase from Wulfgarn,I like rules light, not rules non-existent. It is possible to write a rule and in that rule leave it up to the GM.

If you write a rule and just assume it will be interpreted with this in mind you are opening up for rules lawyers.

Then again, if you don't care how each group interprets the play style then why write the rule in the first place?

I don't think "every Player Must Track Their Own Matrice" is a rule in AD&D. It's just how the GM interprets the game being played...I hope!

Then I must ask, why do you own a DM screen if your not going to refer to it?

Maybe we just need 5 player screens instead...can you imagine?!?!

The Humanity!!!

I just remember our 1E DM screens being in the middle of the table so everyone could look at them, I don't remember what the exact social rules were. My memories for over 20 years ago are very unclear for some darn reason.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Joe »

Ok, that sounds reasonable enough.

There were none, nor is there really any social rules per se.

I remember not using a screen and making it up half the time.

Perhaps therin lies the dilemna. It is with my own memories and perceptions and not an actual function of the game.

Interesting...
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Post by Taranthyll »

Treebore wrote:
When I "went back" to 1E, I too played it RAW, and it gave me a very different feeling as well. Back when I used to play 1E we ignored a LOT of what was in the books, starting with initiative, racial class limitations, racial level limitations, and the list goes on.

This was my experience, too. I ignored a whole lot of the rules and never really appreciated just how cool the henchmen and hireling rules are (which I am busily incorporating into my C&C game). Lately I've been re-reading my 1E books and I'm coming to realize just how different the game truly is than the way I used to play it some 25+ years ago. I'm also realizing that it was a much better game than I gave it credit for at the time and only now am I coming to appreciate the genius of Gary Gygax.
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Post by Treebore »

Taranthyll wrote:
This was my experience, too. I ignored a whole lot of the rules and never really appreciated just how cool the henchmen and hireling rules are (which I am busily incorporating into my C&C game). Lately I've been re-reading my 1E books and I'm coming to realize just how different the game truly is than the way I used to play it some 25+ years ago. I'm also realizing that it was a much better game than I gave it credit for at the time and only now am I coming to appreciate the genius of Gary Gygax.

Agreed. Everything Gary did had a good reason to it, I just took over 20 years to see that.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Hrolfgar »

Back in the early 80's when I occasionally ran AD&D, I always figured out if the players rolls where good enough to hit. It was just easier and some players cheated.

Most DM's in my experience ignored or modified many rules. I often kept running the game the same way I had when using the original white box set i.e. rolls stats in order, generously(so I thought) allowing the player to use 4d6 and keep the highest. My roommate in college pointed out after reading the DMG that my method was stricter than any of the 4 methods recommended in the book.
I always encouraged players to use the henchmen and hireling rules but only one player with a high charisma magic user did. He made it to 10th level and his 1st henchmen made it to 7th level Fighter, which was about the same level as the other players' characters (they kept dying).

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Post by Benoist »

serleran wrote:
No, I can't agree with you on that, sorry. The layout is one thing, maybe... and that is a stretch. I mean, RPG Gods forbid that the Player Material is separate from the DM Material. Certainly some sections within the books seem segregated, too, but that just means you read it all... or you make it up. I'm a fan of making it up. But, I started with the DMG as the only book I had.

And, to say the writing needs to be cleaned up... well, I'll not respond to that blasphemy.

I for one agree with Treebore. I like both OSRIC and AD&D, and will use them together in games.

OSRIC for quick reference, DMG for particulars, MM and FF for some monsters... I get the best of both worlds.

But really, the layout and organization of the books will appeal to different audiences. Some will want to run the game from AD&D, others from OSRIC.

If you refer to the combat sections for instance in the AD&D books, they are in fact scattered through different books, and different places in the books themselves. This, in actual play, back in the day, resulted in many instances, in my experience, with people actually not using the AD&D rules in their AD&D games (which in turn created a whole host of "issues" with the game that just weren't there in the first place, like "all fighters playing the same", but that's another issue). I have no idea whether this effect was a minority, a majority, or anything in between, and you certainly don't seem to have that issue at all, but I've seen plenty of tables have them.

OSRIC provides a different type of organization that will give some players many a "ah-ha!" moment in these instances. If more people end up playing AD&D, whether they are using the AD&D books or OSRIC, I don't care, and will call this a win for vintage gaming.
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Post by Benoist »

Treebore wrote:
Agreed. Everything Gary did had a good reason to it, I just took over 20 years to see that.

Basically what I was just talking about. Spot on.
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Post by Benoist »

Joe wrote:
Did each player refer to a table, or did the DM look at his screen with the tables and tell you if you hit or not?

My opinion today is if you don't care if they follow RAW or not then that needs to be clear in the wording. "As determined by GM" will suffice for that.

If I may lift a phrase from Wulfgarn,I like rules light, not rules non-existent. It is possible to write a rule and in that rule leave it up to the GM.

If you write a rule and just assume it will be interpreted with this in mind you are opening up for rules lawyers.

Then again, if you don't care how each group interprets the play style then why write the rule in the first place?

I don't think "every Player Must Track Their Own Matrice" is a rule in AD&D. It's just how the GM interprets the game being played...I hope!

Then I must ask, why do you own a DM screen if your not going to refer to it?

Maybe we just need 5 player screens instead...can you imagine?!?!

The Humanity!!!

"Every player must track their own matrix" is not an OSRIC rule either. And I basically agree with your point: for AD&D to carry a "First Ed" feel, the less the players are tracking the numbers and worrying about mechanical issues, the better. I call it the "Wizard of Oz" effect of First Ed (with the DM as the Wizard). That's why, for instance, I am opposed to the idea of including THAC0 (aka To Hit Armor Class 0) on AD&D sheets (which is really a sign of an evolution of AD&D in later years, up to and including 2nd edition, which made it core to the D&D experience). There were matrixes for the DM to stapple to his screen: use them.

I suspect you were victim of a misguided DM, in this instance. I sympathize.
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Post by Taranthyll »

By the way, Benoist, I love your avatar. That's one of my favourite Orcus illustrations ever.
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Post by sieg »

Playing devil's advocate for a moment....
I believe on the 1E Goldenrod character sheet they gave a matrix for players to fill out each weapon and what they needed to hit with it vs. the various ACs. Not a 'rule' but an aid to smooth play.
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Post by Treebore »

sieg wrote:
Playing devil's advocate for a moment....
I believe on the 1E Goldenrod character sheet they gave a matrix for players to fill out each weapon and what they needed to hit with it vs. the various ACs. Not a 'rule' but an aid to smooth play.

Yes, and that MAtrix is the whole reason I was one of the few DM's I knew of who used all of the weapon speed and weapon versus armor rules, that matrix, once filled out, made those rules much easier to use.
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Post by Joe »

I find it easier simply to not use those rules.

K I S S

Bottom line is I fear I will never be able to play the game I so fondly remember.

Before the goldenrod there was the 3x5 card folks.

Oh and THACO blows. IMHO...

No need for matrices or thaco reverse reasoning when you just fix the AC glitch.

Some times we should just admit that some changes are just a hands down improvement.

It may be notstalgic to pay 190 dollars to see a grey haired burnt out rock star still doing the same concert show 30 years later. Or it may be a tired rip off depending on your perspective.

Or we as old goats that idolize all things Gygax could just take his own words to heart when he said AD&D as a game product is d e a d.

If he moved on why can't we?

it's not the game I remember, so the nostalgia is not there. (Nostalia is the only reason I would play a game that has been out of print longer than my daughter has been alive.) Instead of a sense of reminisce I get a growing resentment that I now have even more crap as a player to track.

C&C might not feel exactly complete, but at least it feels more like the game I remember.
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Post by Traveller »

I never used a DM screen to hide things, even though I have one. I never let the players use a player screen, and I looked at the tables in the book and told them if they hit or not. I ignored a great deal of AD&D even when I was playing it. I never used weapon speed factors, didn't give a rat's ass about encumbrance, and didn't worry whether a spell had verbal, somatic, and/or material components. I simply played, made a ruling, and moved on.

The DM screen I have did have one redeeming feature: a "universal" to hit table for AD&D. The universal table had all the classes listed at the top with level break points. Below that was the to hit number based on AC. In fact, I borrowed this idea for the combat charts in The Gray Book, because it eliminated the need for me to have four to hit charts that only differed in level break points. I liked that table in AD&D, and that is why I kept a DM screen around while not using it.

I am a fan of rules light, and don't care much for rules non-existent*. However, what I am not a fan of is rules bloat, and unfortunately while AD&D - especially the DMG - is a phenomenal read, it simply has too many rules that people are going to ignore. I know AD&D was crafted to be a tournament rule set, but while Gary wanted a uniform set of rules for the purpose, people took it and did what they always did, make the game their own.

I've figured out that I will likely never play AD&D again. It's simply too heavy, both physically and mentally, to carry. I will likely never play OD&D sans supplements, B/X, BECMI, or RC D&D again, due to stylistic differences compared to AD&D. I love the Dungeons & Dragons game, it being the game I grew up with, but as I grow older I think back to times past and discover that I played AD&D just as I would have played OD&D if I was introduced to the earlier game first. Since I never played AD&D by the book in the first place, why not create something that could be described as AD&D with an OD&D base. While not the core idea of The Gray Book, using OD&D mechanics underneath the AD&D tropes allowed me to have a game that fit me, as it should be.

OSRIC would never fit me. Not just because of my very violent opposition to the very existence of the game, but because it attempts to simulate AD&D in its entirety. For me at least, OSRIC in that regard is an epic fail, because just like AD&D it has too many rules.

Joe, take a look at The Gray Book (link in my signature), try it out and see if it fits your needs a bit better than OSRIC. Let me know what you think.

*Anybody want a copy of De Profundis?
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Joe
Unkbartig
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 am

Post by Joe »

I'll take a look but I have stopped reviewing different game systems for the time being. I have never been big on reading game systems for the sake of reading game systems.

I think it's cool we have the clones and such.

After certain industry giants went the directions they did, I finally just started writing my own game.

I have decided to focus on that and not fill my time with comparing this system or that.

Don't get me wrong guys. The campaign will be loads of fun because we have a good group with decernt to good chemistry.

With that combination you could rock/paper/scissors a great campaign!
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serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Post by serleran »

I dunno. Roshambo has its own complications, especially when multiple people are playing at the same time, in the same game...
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