Gonna Play OSRIC Tonight...

[Traveller]

Joe wrote:
I'll take a look but I have stopped reviewing different game systems for the time being. I have never been big on reading game systems for the sake of reading game systems.

I know I may seem biased in saying this, being very proud of the amount of work I've put into The Gray Book, but The Gray Book isn't a simulacrum game. It's Original Dungeons & Dragons and very recognizably so according to the few reviews I have seen on it floating about the Internet.

Oh, and Joe...I was hoping you would play it, not read it. I've had enough "this looks fantastic" comments to last a lifetime.
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[GoOrange]

I recently picked up some used copies of AD&D 1e and purchased OSRIC at lulu. In the end, it wasn't as cool as I remembered. The original books were poorly organized and bizarrely written, but with a certain entertaining flair. OSRIC made more sense, but rambled on with a monotonous writing style.

The whole experience made me recall my days of actually playing and reading the books back in school. I first learned D&D with the Mentzner Basic Set and in the end, it would be most accurate to say we played Basic D&D using the character options from the AD&D PHB. I remember at the time trying to figure out some of the nuances of the game by reading the AD&D books but as an elementary school kid, it was simply beyond me.

It's great that OSRIC is keeping the tradition alive and I tip my hat to them. Then again, when it comes to actually playing, C&C is the pentultimate "what D&D second edition should have been".

[Joe]

Traveller wrote:
I know I may seem biased in saying this, being very proud of the amount of work I've put into The Gray Book, but The Gray Book isn't a simulacrum game. It's Original Dungeons & Dragons and very recognizably so according to the few reviews I have seen on it floating about the Internet.

Oh, and Joe...I was hoping you would play it, not read it. I've had enough "this looks fantastic" comments to last a lifetime.

I am honestly spending all my waking spare time developing and playtesting my own game at the moment. It has really eaten my lunch! The process goes deep into the early mornings just to start all over again the next day. I am not complaining, just was not aware how much work it was really going to be.

My hat goes off to professional game designers after my still unfolding experience.

I just wanted a game I could happily play without a new edition pulling the rug out from under me or forcing me to buy more more more just to keep up with the whats happening now crowd.

If I had a dollar for every game/campaign that was started only to dwindle under some new edition, new game, flavor of the month, or pretty flashing lights, I would be a very wealthy man.

I will show your gray Book to my DM running the OSRIC. He seems to be into reading different stuff at the moment.

BTW: What the heck is Simulacrum? All that comes to mind is Phillip K d**k. Is it synonomous with clone?

How would a game like C&C fit in? What about a game like Conan? Both are OGL games but are not similar in any way except to be an rpg.

Would that make pathfinder a 3.x clone or simulacrum then?

I am loathe to refer to any game under these labels because I have found they carry notions and preconceived ideas that are usually not accurate at all.
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[Traveller]

Joe, I was only teasing, thus the smiley.

I don't label The Gray Book as either a simulacrum or a clone because it is neither. My vision for the book, as I had always stated, was for it to be the book that Holmes had written before TSR gutted it. I won't recount the three years I spent putting it together in my spare time except to say that on occasion the project threatened to steer away from the vision. Some out there believe it did. I don't.

So Joe, I understand the pain all too well, but the reward at the end is soooo worth it.

Simulacrum game is the correct term for what we refer to as "clone" games. The reason being that by definition a clone would be an identical copy in every detail. Simulacrum games attempt to function like the original but have differences in detail, organization and look. By this definition...

C&C is a simulacrum of Dungeons & Dragons or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, depending on who you talk to.

Conan is an original work, therefore it is neither a simulacrum nor a clone.

Pathfinder is a simulacrum of d20, because its stated purpose is to keep the d20 system going after Hasbro switched to their new abomination.

But like you, I don't like using labels either. I simply say whether the game sucks donkey d**k or not.
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My small homage to E.G.G.

[Omote]

GoOrange wrote:
IIt's great that OSRIC is keeping the tradition alive and I tip my hat to them. Then again, when it comes to actually playing, C&C is the pentultimate "what D&D second edition should have been".

Penultimate? Wow with the amount of games on the market right now, I think that is pretty harsh to say about C&C.

~O
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[serleran]

Finishing before last is still better than being last.
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[Breakdaddy]

Omote wrote:
Penultimate? Wow with the amount of games on the market right now, I think that is pretty harsh to say about C&C.

~O

I don't think he really meant penultimate.

[serleran]

"Inconceivable!

You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means..."

"How unfair!

You keep saying that but I wonder what your basis for comparison is..."

Ahh, good times. High times, but that's what you get in Rolling Rock.
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[GoOrange]

I think you're confusing the meaning of the word. It generally doesn't carry a negative connotation, that's misinterpretation.

Think of it as next to final rather than next to last. Last often has a negative tone to it while final doesn't really carry a subjective judgment to it.

While I love C&C, I think there is room for improvement and some day we may actually see the ultimate, final, perfect product. Until such a time arrives, penultimate it remains.

[Breakdaddy]

GoOrange wrote:
I think you're confusing the meaning of the word. It generally doesn't carry a negative connotation, that's misinterpretation.

Think of it as next to final rather than next to last. Last often has a negative tone to it while final doesn't really carry a subjective judgment to it.

While I love C&C, I think there is room for improvement and some day we may actually see the ultimate, final, perfect product. Until such a time arrives, penultimate it remains.

Fascinating interpretation. I've only heard penultimate used as a pejorative, but I get your meaning. By your definition, then, I would have to say there will never be an ultimate version of C&C or any RPG since perfection (at least widely interpretable perfection) is beyond the capability of any publisher to achieve. I hope that C&C becomes a near-perfect game for you, but others will always think our favorite game is detritus so it's all subjective.

[Benoist]

sieg wrote:
Playing devil's advocate for a moment....
I believe on the 1E Goldenrod character sheet they gave a matrix for players to fill out each weapon and what they needed to hit with it vs. the various ACs. Not a 'rule' but an aid to smooth play.

Yup. And today, I would erase this from the character sheet prior to the game, namely to preserve the "Wizard of Oz" DMing AD&D implies.

THAC0 blows for me too, but not for the reasons stated by other posters on this thread. It blows to me because it goes against AD&D's original design, where many of the mechanical happenings at the game table are handled by the DM, not the player. The player immerses himself in the game world through his character, rolls a die once in a while, and plays from there. Let me, DM, take care of the pure metagame mechanics. Matrixes on a DM screen participates to this, whereas THAC0 on a character sheet goes against it.
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[Benoist]

Taranthyll wrote:
By the way, Benoist, I love your avatar. That's one of my favourite Orcus illustrations ever.

Ah. A man with good tastes, I see!
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[Deogolf]

Benoist wrote:
Ah. A man with good tastes, I see!

I'm not familiar with that one. Where did it come from? It is pretty neat though!!
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[Benoist]

Deogolf wrote:
I'm not familiar with that one. Where did it come from? It is pretty neat though!!

Got it from the Best of The Dragon, vol. 1. It's from one of the earliest issues, originally.
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[Treebore]

Breakdaddy wrote:
Fascinating interpretation. I've only heard penultimate used as a pejorative, but I get your meaning. By your definition, then, I would have to say there will never be an ultimate version of C&C or any RPG since perfection (at least widely interpretable perfection) is beyond the capability of any publisher to achieve. I hope that C&C becomes a near-perfect game for you, but others will always think our favorite game is detritus so it's all subjective.

Yeah, C&C will never achieve widely perceived "perfection" but I about have it there for myself. So it still will have the distinction of being the first RPG I have been able to get to "perfection", with the fewest house rules too!
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[concobar]

GoOrange wrote:
The whole experience made me recall my days of actually playing and reading the books back in school. I first learned D&D with the Mentzner Basic Set and in the end, it would be most accurate to say we played Basic D&D using the character options from the AD&D PHB. I remember at the time trying to figure out some of the nuances of the game by reading the AD&D books but as an elementary school kid, it was simply beyond me.

If you liked the BECMI set with AD&D classes you should check out Labyrinth lord and the AEC

[Philotomy Jurament]

I recently started running an AD&D game for my nephew and his friends from school. I have the OSRIC book and the AD&D books, and I chose the AD&D books, without batting an eye. (In fact, I ordered some additional Players Handbooks off the web so we'd have four or five copies at the table.)

OSRIC was not intended as a game to be run, but as a publishing tool to encourage the publication of 1e compatible modules. That's how I look at it. (Indeed, that's how I tend to view at all the clone systems, and also systems like C&C and Hackmaster: potential sources of material for my D&D game.)

As to "why not just publish it using C&C," I think there are a couple of reasons. One is the issue of getting a license. The other is the SIEGE engine. Neither of those is insurmountable, of course, but it's also simple to publish under OSRIC or even just "1e compatible" with or without the OGL.

Personally, if I were to publish a D&D module, I'd probably either do it with the OGL, and not tie it to one of the trademarks (e.g. C&C, OSRIC, etc), or I'd submit it to a publisher that had the kind of style (art, layout, adventure design) that I like.
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