Tales of a 4th Edition Nothing

TLG d20, Necromancer Games and general. Discuss any game not covered in another forum.
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Deogolf
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Post by Deogolf »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Badgers!?! We don't need no stinkin badgers!

(it just had to be said)

I do!!
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GameOgre
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Post by GameOgre »

The day someone figures out how to take all the powers/daily/encounter/ect out of 4E I will be one happy camper. I love 4E in theory! In practice it blows chunks due 100% to the massive bookkeeping and railroading of character activities. You might not have to keep track of every power used by your group but I damn well do!! those little buggers cheat!! I play with my kids so I can't just kick em out of the game"they go running to the Mommy and the next thing I know my Hunnydo list is filled.
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Go0gleplex
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Post by Go0gleplex »

[quote="Deogolf"][quote="Go0gleplex"]Badgers!?! We don't need no stinkin badgers!

(it just had to be said)[/quote]

I do!! [/quote]

Given the context....yeah...I gotta concede that one.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

GameOgre wrote:
I play with my kids so I can't just kick em out of the game"they go running to the Mommy and the next thing I know my Hunnydo list is filled.

My son tells on me when I do the "I killed your Barbarian!" dance.

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Post by GameOgre »

Quote:
My son tells on me when I do the "I killed your Barbarian!" dance.

Mine learned to play MC Hammers "you can't touch this" while dancing around the room after every battle that he thinks he won against all odds. It could be cute if he wasnt in colledge.
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Post by Drew »

seskis281 wrote:
Let's just be honest - D&D 4e is a different game, but that doesn't mean it's "bad" or "horribly wrong" in its own right. I don't like it...

I removed most of what you said for brevity, but I wanted to give kudos. Well said, Sir.

And that goes for the rest of you, Serl, DD, et all. The original point of this thread was not to edition bash, not really. It was meant to be cathartic. I was reading all this stuff being bounced around on e-mail and feeling alienated from my own hobby. I needed a group of like-minded folks to discuss things with. Whether you agree with me or not, at least you know where I'm coming from.

Thanks, everyone, I feel better.

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Post by concobar »

Drew wrote:
I completely disagree. There are feats and powers that work in tandem, and you ignore those sorts of combos to your detriment. My 4E wizard sucked. Other characters were doing all kinds of damage, teleporting around the table, moving other figures around the table, marking people, cursing people...I could slow the bad guys (literally, reduce their movement speed. No other effect) or do a small amount of damage. Yay.

Thats what controllers do. A wizard will not out damage a striker. If you think that they should you have misunderstood the game.

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Post by GameOgre »

Quote:
Thats what controllers do. A wizard will not out damage a striker. If you think that they should you have misunderstood the game.

See its this set mentality that X class will do way better than Y class at major roles that many HATE about 4E. What if you wanted a wizard striker? or what if you wanted a sorceror that used control spells ect??

Was this in 1E,2E,3E? well too a point. Some class's delt out more damage than others but only on average. In 1E I had a bad arsed thief that always delt out major friggin damage and always seemed to be the one putting the bad guys down. The character was bad a**e not the class.

In 4E it is set in friggin STONE!! X character WILL be this way and Y WILL be that way. Blah!!

I friggin play 4E and do have fun IN SPITE of this stuff.
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Post by concobar »

GameOgre wrote:
See its this set mentality that X class will do way better than Y class at major roles that many HATE about 4E. What if you wanted a wizard striker? or what if you wanted a sorceror that used control spells ect??

Was this in 1E,2E,3E? well too a point. Some class's delt out more damage than others but only on average. In 1E I had a bad arsed thief that always delt out major friggin damage and always seemed to be the one putting the bad guys down. The character was bad a**e not the class.

In 4E it is set in friggin STONE!! X character WILL be this way and Y WILL be that way. Blah!!

I friggin play 4E and do have fun IN SPITE of this stuff.

Set in stone kinda like how things are/were in OD&D or BECMI? It sounds like you have a problem with classed based games. All damage delt by different classes within a role in 4E is on average. The wizard can deal ok damage if it is built to do so just as a thief can do ok as a controller if the correct feats are taken. A thief will always be a better striker/single target damage dealer than the wizard and the wiza4rd will control the battle field and do more damage to multiple targets than the thief. SAME AS IT EVER WAS.

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Post by concobar »

GameOgre wrote:
See its this set mentality that X class will do way better than Y class at major roles that many HATE about 4E. What if you wanted a wizard striker? or what if you wanted a sorceror that used control spells ect??

What game are you playing that doesnt assume that certain classes will do way better in certain roles than other classes? D&D was designed around the idea of roles and classes that fit those roles from the very beginning which is why 4E is much more a return to that old school philosophy than was 3rd edition. Roles matter, know your role!

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Post by Drew »

concobar wrote:
Thats what controllers do. A wizard will not out damage a striker. If you think that they should you have misunderstood the game.

What? That's not what I said. Other characters were doing lots of interesting things. They were moving people around the battlefield, teleporting, forcing characters to attack them...basically doing lots of interesting stuff.

My complaint was not that I wasn't doing as much damage as everyone. Whatever, man, you think 4E is the bees knees and I think it changes basic assumptions about the way the game is played in ways I don't care for.

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Post by Treebore »

concobar wrote:
What game are you playing that doesnt assume that certain classes will do way better in certain roles than other classes? D&D was designed around the idea of roles and classes that fit those roles from the very beginning which is why 4E is much more a return to that old school philosophy than was 3rd edition. Roles matter, know your role!

Thats my problem with 4E. No one does "better" than anyone else, all the classes are the same they just have different window dressing to make them appear to be different. No matter what you play they all do similar damage, its just that the names of their powers are different. Strip away all the various names and just look at mechanical effects and every single class is nearly identical.

So yeah, the classes supposedly have different roles, but when you get down to it everyone is just too darn similar for my tastes. The variety of adjectives don't mask it nearly well enough for me.

I like true rolls, where the fighter is going to kick but in melee combat, where the wizard is going to rule the battle field, where the cleric is going to be great at healing and turning undead, where the thief is going to be really good at picking pockets, opening locks, backstabbing, etc...

Where all the classes are going to look and play radically differently from each other. Not be clones with a variety of cosmetic surgery to only look like they are really different.

4E took this "balanced" concept too far, I don't want to play "clones of a different color". I want very distinct differences, I want Wizards and Clerics becoming so powerful as to bend and alter reality, I like fighters who when they get in your face they are going to hurt you badly as they slice and dice you, and I like a thief who skulks around the battlefield and if they get lucky will land a hit on you so painful they may take you out of the fight completely in one blow.

So give me "imbalance", the last thing I want to play is a variety of clones, where the only difference is the colors and patterns of the dressing they where, but when you look down to its fundamentals, even the dressing is the same.
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Post by concobar »

Drew wrote:
What? That's not what I said. Other characters were doing lots of interesting things. They were moving people around the battlefield, teleporting, forcing characters to attack them...basically doing lots of interesting stuff.

Interesting is subjective. Maybe you should have played another class and did those interesting things and let someone else play a wizard. Eladrin wizards can teleport, what you think is neat or interesting may be different than what others do.
Drew wrote:
My complaint was not that I wasn't doing as much damage as everyone. Whatever, man, you think 4E is the bees knees and I think it changes basic assumptions about the way the game is played in ways I don't care for.

What basic assumptions of role playing and the roles classes fill have been changed? I do like 4E, I would play 4E and I have enough knowledge and skill with the 4E system that I am good at any character of any role in a 4E game... I prefer the paladin or fighters the most because i like the role of protector or tank. Running 4E was a gateway for my current running of old school BECMI. Having ran both in the last couple of years I see a lot of the same design philosophies at work and consider the two much closer in ideology that either are with other editions of the game.

Tree, I can kinda agree with your point insofar as the mechanics for every class are very similar what with the at will, encounter, and daily powers and the roll attack verse defense for result. The different classes do fill different roles and are very different in what they do to support the party as a whole in exactly the same way as classes do in older editions of D&D. BECMI becomes a nightmare if the recommended classes are not in the group as does D&D4e. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Try playing through some of the C&C modules with out a fighter or cleric in the group... the character fatality rate increases dramatically.

While the classes function the same mechanically the roles they fill are very different.

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Post by DaveyB »

Quote:
DangerDwarf wrote:

Sounds like 3e all over again. That EXACT problem has been an issue with d20 since its inception. 3e marked the beginning of the "character build" era. Elite Array anyone? Hell, even on the WotC boards they had an ENTIRE FORUM (that was quite popular) dedicated to optimal "builds". Even on forums outside of the official WotC boards you would see posts like, "Why would you choose Feat X? Thats a waste, go Plan Alpha route and your character will be the shit." A character with a "sub-optimal build" in 3e was a matter of much conversation. Even the Dragon Magazine kicked of the 3e launch with a column on optimizing character builds.

Yeah, it's still there in both the game and the forum. When you can now START with an 18 right off the bat without rolling and it's encouraged that you do to be "optimal", things don't bode well. Unfortunately the flawed math in 4e means that your character will only hit about 45%-50% of the time. While you can mitigate this somewhat via the DM and how he/she runs the game, it shouldn't have to come to that.
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Didn't Elminster have five classes (A couple of them at only lvl 1 or 2 to dip into some class abilities)? I seem to recall other NPC's in the book that were built in a similar vein. It has been several years since I've read the book so perhaps I am remembering wrong.

He had about 5 or 6 classes if I'm not mistaken. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I believe it went something like Wizard /Rogue/Fighter(maybe Bard)/Archmage/Chose of Mystra or something to that effect.
Quote:
3e brought a lot of absurdities to the table and 4e just continued the trend in some areas. What amazes me is that anyone was surprised.

Remember when the R&D team came up with the half-dragon treant and their defense was "by the rules its technically allowable."

3e folks defended that line of thought.

When the Delve format was introduced and WotC referred to it as a new type of "User Interface"?

3e folks defended the trend of the computerization of the game.

Back when 3e first released there were accusations of making it a miniatures game yet folks defended the tactical aspect of play too.

4e gave the 3e fans all the things they had spend years defending and more. It is probably petty of me but I can't help but chuckle.

I've got no issues with folks disliking 4e. But, 3e does not get to take the proverbial high ground when it is just as guilty in the same areas.

4e defenders will defend anything WotC comes up with. Like resting for 8 hours cures you of all wounds somehow. You can only use a magic item once per day unless you hit a milestone or it has more than one "power". Monk being psionic. The absurd balancing act they did on the classes so that now everyone is "different" yet they all feel the same during play. I could go on but you get the point.

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Post by Orpheus »

Y'all still take this shit WAY too seriously.

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Post by Drew »

concobar wrote:
Interesting is subjective. Maybe you should have played another class and did those interesting things and let someone else play a wizard.

You said that one cannot, in your opinion, make poor character design choices in 4E, other than ability scores. I didn't build my wizard based on research I did on the internet. As a result, I felt like my character was outshined on the battlefield, like I had less to do. Part of the problem was my selection of Sleep as a daily spell. Sleep is a very different spell than it was in previous editions (sensing a theme?) and was pretty darn underwhelming. Poking around a little, I found that I could make sleep more useful with the proper feats, implement abilites, etc.

In other words, if I built my character "better." This is exactly how I feel when I'm killed by some kid on World of Warcraft and I read about how I need a better character spec and gear. Blech.
concobar wrote:
What basic assumptions of role playing and the roles classes fill have been changed?

As I stated before, the wizard I played, due in part to the way powers have been homogenized between classes, did not feel the same way it did in previous editions. I submit that the 4E wizard is a very different class than it was in older versions of the game.
concobar wrote:
I do like 4E, I would play 4E and I have enough knowledge and skill with the 4E system that I am good at any character of any role in a 4E game...

Yeah, I think that's my problem. Clearly I'm not good enough yet at 4E. If I was, I'm sure I'd like it more.
Orpheus wrote:
Y'all still take this shit WAY too seriously.
You said it, friend.

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Post by concobar »

Drew wrote:
You said that one cannot, in your opinion, make poor character design choices in 4E, other than ability scores. I didn't build my wizard based on research I did on the internet. As a result, I felt like my character was outshined on the battlefield, like I had less to do.

Maybe instead of starting another 4e whine thread on the C&C boards you should have tried another character and see how you "feel" about that class. Maybe you should learn that D&D style RPGs especially D&D4e are about the interactions of the classes as a whole and not so much one classes ability to shine more than another. A well played controller can turn a group wipe into an easy fight. May not be as flashy as a rouge or warlock but those are the breaks. It is a team game.
Drew wrote:
Part of the problem was my selection of Sleep as a daily spell. Sleep is a very different spell than it was in previous editions (sensing a theme?) and was pretty darn underwhelming. Poking around a little, I found that I could make sleep more useful with the proper feats, implement abilites, etc.

A lot of things changed between the editions. Sleep is the same spell it is the mechanics that are different. In other editions sleep has no save to resist and in some it does. in 4E it has an attack roll and a save. The initial effect makes the target drowsy and slow, if a save is failed the target passes out. It is the mechanics of 4E, they are much much more tactical than other editions of the game.
Drew wrote:
In other words, if I built my character "better." This is exactly how I feel when I'm killed by some kid on World of Warcraft and I read about how I need a better character spec and gear. Blech.

This is true of many editions of D&D and more true of D&D3e than it is of D&D4e which is why some on these boards do get a chuckle out of 3E players whining about things in 4e that are even more common in 3e.
Drew wrote:
As I stated before, the wizard I played, due in part to the way powers have been homogenized between classes, did not feel the same way it did in previous editions. I submit that the 4E wizard is a very different class than it was in older versions of the game.

I would agree with you on this. the earlier edition wizard had the ability to be a pure damage dealer, a controller, or what have you. D&D4e has made the wizard the primary controller and toned down a lot of the old damage spells in the name of balance. Magic missile is still a pretty good option in 4E if you want to feel like you are killing things.
Drew wrote:
Yeah, I think that's my problem. Clearly I'm not good enough yet at 4E. If I was, I'm sure I'd like it more.

Maybe and maybe not. No one on these boards is suggesting that any should like or dislike any game system. It is clear from your whines that you lack a understanding of how 4e is played which i will admit is very different than 3e or either AD&D games.
Orpheus wrote:
Y'all still take this shit WAY too seriously.
Drew wrote:
You said it, friend.

Do you not think agreeing with Orpheus after having started a edition war thread and whining about another system makes you something of a hypocrite? If you actually agree with O and did not take this shit way too serious you probably would not have started a thread about 4E on the C&C boards. you probably would have had a laugh about how 4e plays and dropped it at that.

Unless you were looking for sympathy or this was an attempt to be a part of the group... Either way I have had a good time.

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Post by Drew »

concobar wrote:
Maybe and maybe not. No one on these boards is suggesting that any should like or dislike any game system. It is clear from your whines that you lack a understanding of how 4e is played which i will admit is very different than 3e or either AD&D games.

Nope, I understand 4E just fine. I just don't care for the way it plays. I'm still going to play it with my coworkers, though, since I miss my old home group and want to play something with grownups. Perhaps I'll post my impressions to this thread.
concobar wrote:
Do you not think agreeing with Orpheus after having started a edition war thread and whining about another system makes you something of a hypocrite?

You sound kind of smug here, my friend. I've already explained my original motivations for starting this thread. Any edition "war" was pretty much me and you. And yeah, I agree that I take this crap too seriously sometimes. Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

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Post by concobar »

I would convince my friends to play C&C or Labyrinth lord.

I run a LL+AEC+DD game atm. though I like 4e i have found the simplicity and ease of house ruling things in the older game a real treat.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

COme up for Troll Con at the end of the month and you can play all the C&C you want with adults, Drew.
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Post by seskis281 »

Breakdaddy wrote:
COme up for Troll Con at the end of the month and you can play all the C&C you want with adults, Drew.

Well, in BD and a couple of our cases, more like pseudo-adults

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Post by Treebore »

seskis281 wrote:
Well, in BD and a couple of our cases, more like pseudo-adults

No kidding! Besides, adults are stuck in their ways and boring!
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Post by Treebore »

Orpheus wrote:
Y'all still take this shit WAY too seriously.

The only thing I take seriously is spending my time playing games I like most. Which is a lot. So it would be better if I only like one or two RPG's, because then I would have plenty of time to play them.
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Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by Breakdaddy »

Awwwwww yeahhhhhhhh!
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Post by serleran »

At least this one has not been locked... yet.
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Post by concobar »

Just found out my buddy is gonna be starting up a Lot5R 4e game...

hmmm, Lion clan bushi or scorpion clan ninja... decisions decisions.

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Post by serleran »

Neither. Go with nezumi courtesan. That always works well.
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Post by concobar »

btw for any that are fans of l5r the new 4th printing rulebook is absolutely beautiful. well worth the cover price.

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Post by Drew »

How is the new Legend of the Five Rings? What's the system like?

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Post by Vroomfogle »

Ok so I've never played D&D 3rd or 4th edition, but I do have this to say...

It's ROGUE

ROUGE is a cosmetic used to color the cheeks

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