Troll Lord Games

I just started reading through this module from Goodman Games, and the plot hook fits my campaign perfectly. That almost never happens! The stolen religious objects (of a sun god, no less) is a near perfect match for the PCs.

So far, I'm very happy that Goodman converted this module to C&C. It'll be cool to dive into the Underdark, too.

Sounds good. It seems like an interesting module. I'm adding to my X-mas list of stuff to get from Noble Knight Games.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Sounds good. It seems like an interesting module. I'm adding it to my X-mas list of stuff to get from Noble Knight Games.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Much as I hate to slag Goodman and a C&C module, after finishing reading through the module, I'm going to retract my excitement. The plot is still cool as heck, but there's way too many 3e-isms still in the module for my tastes. There's still more than a few templates, goofy race/class combinations, and even references to feats.

Boo.

I still may run the thing, but I'll have to do some tweaking to do so.

This has been my experience with the conversions too.. I want to like the plots and the environs.. but the lingering dreck from TETSNBN sometimes feels like a file across my nerves..

I had the same issues with the Goodman games 1E GenCon special Saga of the Witch Queen.. come on.. this is a 4th level module for characters and in the beginning section, there are numerous 3rd ed-isms.. and 2 monsters (both optional) that have 120+ hit points each! Arrgh.

I can, and have, run it.. but had to do a bunch of "on the fly" work..

-P

I picked up Slithering Overlord just because it was the last DCC to come out while I was still D&D3ing. Although if they made those hardback books with twenty adventures (DCC#29 & #48) in them I would jump all over them, too. Well, maybe not converted ones. But a big old hardbound book o' dungeons.
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The Rock says ...

Know your roll!

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:
Much as I hate to slag Goodman and a C&C module, after finishing reading through the module, I'm going to retract my excitement. The plot is still cool as heck, but there's way too many 3e-isms still in the module for my tastes. There's still more than a few templates, goofy race/class combinations, and even references to feats.

I got the same feeling when I read over it. I got the feeling that I might as well have bought the d20 version.
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porkuslime wrote:
This has been my experience with the conversions too.. I want to like the plots and the environs.. but the lingering dreck from TETSNBN sometimes feels like a file across my nerves..

I had the same issues with the Goodman games 1E GenCon special Saga of the Witch Queen.. come on.. this is a 4th level module for characters and in the beginning section, there are numerous 3rd ed-isms.. and 2 monsters (both optional) that have 120+ hit points each! Arrgh.

I can, and have, run it.. but had to do a bunch of "on the fly" work..

-P

I'm genuinely shocked that you found Saga of the Witch Queen to be so lacking and offensive to your senses.
As the person that did the AD&D conversion work, and who co-wrote the middle adventure, for that Goodman Games Gen Con special release, I thought I took great care to exercise nearly all of the 3rd ed-isms, goofy feat/skill mechanics and silly race/class combinations from all 80 pages of the adventure. Apparently I missed some residual 3rd ed-isms.

I'm curious what you found to be so offensive. Would you care to elaborate on what 3rd ed-isms were left in the adventure?

Others that have read it have, for the most part, found it to be a solid conversion of a really good d20 adventure. There's no question that the 3 Saga adventures are very tough adventures. That was intended from a design standpoint. But, in the end, everyone's tastes differ. Where you found left over 3rd ed-isms and dreck, others have found pure gold.

tacojohn4547

Though I have both adventures mentioned in this thread, I can't comment as much on the conversion for the Slithering Overlord since I haven't begun to read through it yet.

On the other hand, I've started reading bits of the Saga of the Witch Queen since I intend to start running this in a few weeks. I can't say I've come up with any issues with it either. Bottom line, it looks like a solid conversion, but from a curiosity's standpoint I'll be happy to post any issues I see after I run it for my group. However, from what I've already seen, I doubt I'll have any issues to post!
All I can say is I'm looking forward to their next conversions (whether it be for C&C or 1st Ed)

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

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Moriarty777 --

You should be aware that the converted adventures are very tough, probably exceeding the stated PC levels of 4-6 for Legacy of the Savage King. Have you read the formal review of this at DF, K&K or EnWorld? Mythmere's review points out that this adventure compilation is tougher than the suggested levels.

The narrow time window we had on this to be able to get it done for Gen Con precluded us from doing full playtests before we went to the printer. As a result, I think the whole thing is underrated as far as suitable PC levles. However, there are suggestions for each of the three adventures for scaling back the difficulty. You might want to use those guidlines if your party isn't on the high side of the suggested levels.

Otherwise, I'd enjoy hearing how the adventure goes and what your players did to overcome the odds. Good luck with it.

tacojohn4547

Tacojohn4547 --

Thanks for the advice, I'll be sure to check out some of the reviews you mention. I figured I'd have to play with scaling back the difficulty anyway and usually the guidelines given are pretty good to begin with. In this case, the characters have just hit 6th level but they are a smaller party.

Then again, my players are also used to me putting their characters through a great deal of pain!

I'm looking really forward to running the Witch Queen Saga and I'll be sure to post both here and the Goodman Games forums with how everything turns out!

Thanks again!

M
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"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"

Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com

I would like to take a minute and apologize to Tacojohn4547..

Upon rereading the module last night, I seem to have taken some initial impressions from when I ran it in September and magnified them in my mind.

The 3rd -isms that I saw in the Saga of the Witch Queen are all terminology changes that I saw in 3rd edition products, and that was it. Improved, and Advanced creature types are the big issues that I had.

I also DO NOT run 3rd edition.. and if 4-6th level 3rd edition characters are the target levels of this module, then that should have been addressed in the conversion. My party of 5th level guys got the begeebers beaten out of them, and I had to on the fly lower hit points and armor classes for them to have a chance. However, if they had been 7th or 8th level, then this would not have been needed.

Overall, this is a good module. Honest! The 2 encounters that have whopper hit points CAN be avoided easily. It depends on the players and their greed levels.

-P

Porkuslime,

No harm, no foul. I didnt take your criticism personally - at least not too personally.
I do think the characterization of "dreck" was a bit extreme. I probably came across defensive. I guess when you spend so much time on a project like Saga of the Witch Queen, you can't help but be a little defensive when it receives what you believe to be unjust criticism.

Thank you for taking time to point out the issues you had with Saga of the Witch Queen.

I would point out that in the Preface to Saga, there is a caution about the difficulty presented in the adventure compilation. We probably should have been even more intentional about informing the DM of the challenge presented.

You are correct about the toughness being ramped up for some of the monsters. As I mentioned in an earlier post, this was a design intention of Harley's and mine. From what I know of TETSNBN, it has a tendency to coddle players. The very mechanics of the game are all about balance, integration and appropriate challenge levels. OTOH, Harley's and my experiences with AD&D are that there is no such logic or sense of balance integrated into the game. In fact, such notions are anathema to the way we play AD&D. PCs do die on occasion in AD&D. PCs that dont play smart can get themselves killed often. I still play AD&D with my regular groups, and I can tell you for certain that PCs die pretty frequently.

So, when I was working through the conversion, I decided to pick out the top 2 or 3 monsters in each "level" and make them tougher than standard issue monsters. I didnt do this for the sake of just making them tougher, but because we wanted to throw veteran players a curve ball here and there. Lets face it, veteran players still playing AD&D probably know the HD and AC of a standard troll, goblin and lizardman. We wanted to shake them up. So, those selected monsters got more HD, more HP, lower AC, and in some cases higher damage per attack arrays. EGG himself has made the suggestion to do this very thing when wanting to challenge your players that have memorized the monster stats.

I distinguished these tougher monsters from the "standard" monsters by adding "advanced" or "improved" to their descriptions. Is that a carryover from 3.5 Ed? Maybe in terminology it is a carryover. But the design intention of changing monsters up has deep roots in AD&D as well as OD&D. The games early writers did that with surprising frequency. And throwing monsters capable of killing the PCs is a staple of AD&D, IMHO. Look at Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure by Rob Kuntz, or Caverns of Thracia by Paul Jaquays, or the G & D series by EGG. PCs die regularly in those classics. AD&D had no such preconceived ideas that the PCs wouldn't occasionally get themselves killed.

I could have left the advanced or improved out of the monster descriptions. But, having done a couple of these conversions now, I know the altered stats would have received considerable criticism for not being standard or for being busted. So, I opted to clearly identify the monsters that were non-standard. I just happened to use terms that have been used in TETSNBN.

In the end, I think the only thing I'd change in Saga are the suggested levels for each of the three adventures. They're clearly underrated, as pointed out by you and a few others. Had we been able to do a full playtest of the aventures under AD&D, I'm confident we would have reached the same conclusion and bumped the recommended levels for the adventure. As it was, we didn't have that much time.

tacojohn4547