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The Pugilist 
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Unkbartig
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Post The Pugilist
First the positive. I really like AA! WELL thought out, with plenty of options that quite frankly I have ported over to my C&C game. I love the Sanity option, and am using it for my C&C game for a warhammer kind of feel.

The only thing I am not digging is the Pugilist. It's just too "esoteric asian monk" for me. In essence it's just the monk class, but in it's description says that rough and tumble dudes can gain these abilities from the streets, so to speak. I am paraphrasing liberally of course because I don't have the book in front of me. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I am not saying drop the class, but I would just call it something else, like Martial Artist or something, and make an esoteric background for the pc. Pulp superheroes often had that mystical background, coming back from the Orient with almost superhuman abilities.

Pugilist as a brawler could be rewritten, or better yet, just be a type of advantage that could be tacked on to any class. But again, its just my humble and probably meaningless opinion.

Great game though, and looking forward to running some pulp and possibly Call of Cthulhu conversions with AA.


Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:58 pm
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: The Pugilist
I wasn't too impressed with it either. Honestly it looked more like a class you would multiclass with then by itself.


Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:11 pm
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Grey Elf Troll
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Post Re: The Pugilist
First, I'm really glad you guys like the game! Please be sure and spread the word to others--I'm desperate for word of mouth!

Now, while the Pugilist was originally based on the Monk, I don't see how it's a strictly Asian themed class. It was specifically written for brawling and wrestling abilities, but retained just enough of the Monk abilities that depending on how you play and customize it, you could do it as Sailor Steve Costigan or the mystic martial artist of the Asian-themed pulp stories. Indeed, it was originally created for a C&C game wherein I had a player who wanted to play a more wrestling and brawling themed character than the mystic martial artist. I'd suggest comparing the abilities directly; you'll find there are important differences between the Pugilist and the Monk, though at their core since both are weaponless hand-to-hand fighters there will of necessity be similarities.

But even if it is viewed as specifically Asian-themed, let's not forget that so-called "Oriental stories" were a HUGE sub-genre of Pulp as well.

As for a class you'd multiclass with, I've had people play multiclass and single-class pugilists in my games and had a blast both ways.

Now, all that being said, I'd be interested to hear your ideas on what could be improved, as I'm hoping to one day do a second printing/edition of this as with any other SIEGE game, and will make any updates the fans think are needed, as the Trolls have done with classes in C&C.

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Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:43 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: The Pugilist
I've to check that out, because on my first reading, I dind't notice the differences.

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Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:18 am
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Unkbartig
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Post Re: The Pugilist
I think the idea of a brawling specialist has merit, don't get me wrong, but I am not sold on it being it's own class. I would think more special abilities could be provided in the character customization section to create an amazing brawler out of another class, say the Gumshoe or Raider. While I did note some subtle differences, there are still abilities that rough and tough sailors or streetfighters would never achieve, as such abilities are of an exotic nature. Take slow fall and other such skills (at work and don't have the book in front of me!). I am well aware of Oriental Pulp, and think if you wanted to create a super crimefighter of the pulp era with an exotic background, then the Pugilist or Monk becomes a natural choice. I created the Pankratiast class a couple years back, basically a redux of the monk but in a Greek Mythology sort of way, modeling it after both historic Greek/Roman/Spartan pankration and throwing in a bit of the supernatural. It may be worth a look, if you are interested. I have received more compliments on it then I expected.

But I will see you at Gencon soon anyway, as I am in on one of your AA games with my brother and my son! We are all looking forward to it. If I am up to it, I may throw down an AA game in the open gaming areas as well!


Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:21 pm
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Post Re: The Pugilist
I'd argue that Slow Fall is quite appropriate for a brawler type, as it's essentially the ability to roll with damage, which isn't exclusive to Eastern martial arts. However, I'll grant that the way it works mechanically seems a bit mystical. I could change it so that instead of needing a vertical surface it requires a Dexterity Check at a CL of 1 per 10 feet of distance fallen, OR include both. That is, requires a vertical surface within 10 feet or a Dexterity Check at a CL of 1 per 10 feet fallen. That gives you the option of the Wuxia feel or the idea of rolling with the fall.

Some of the abilities could've probably been better named. Mind over Body, for example, could've been called Great Fortitude. Purity of Body could've been Iron Constitution. Something I may keep in mind in the future.

Still Body and Deflect Missiles could arguably be strictly Eastern in origin, though even deflect missiles isn't necessarily restricted to Eastern martial arts and could just be fast reflexes--See Jack Burton in Big Trouble in Little China: "it's all in the reflexes."

Death Strike is pretty clear that it's all how you color it. If you use it to represent the Quivering Palm, it's Eastern. If you use it to represent shattering bones or a blow to the chest that causes a heart attack, it's not--in real life, during the filming of Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren nearly killed Sylvester Stallone when he didn't pull his punch fast enough and blasted Stallone in the chest, causing Stallone's heart and lungs to physically shift. That's an example of a Western (boxing, in fact) version of Death Strike.

So really, Still Body seems to be the only one that I have trouble justifying outside of Eastern mysticism.

How about, in the future, I replace Still Body with a general Roll with Damage ability enabling the Pugilist to half any damage taken from blunt or bludgeoning sources (i.e. non-bladed, non-bullet, non-piercing) by making a Dexterity check with a CL equal to 1/2 damage dealt? This ability could not be combined with Slow Fall.

Still Body, then, could be moved to become a Generic Class Ability.

Note--I'm not getting defensive here, so I hope that's not how it's coming off. These types of discussions are very useful as I move forward with future printings and adjustments!

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Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:27 pm
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Unkbartig
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Post Re: The Pugilist
Seskas's wife is playing a straight pugilist in our game, gave him a high intelligence and it is a fun character to have in the game, already been in his share fair of fights too after one session, who looks something like this only bald


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Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:10 pm
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Greater Lore Drake
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Post Re: The Pugilist
Bartisu!

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Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:16 am
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Hlobane Orc
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Post Re: The Pugilist
I don't see why they can't use guns. I can see this being a big turn off for many players.


Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:28 pm
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Post Re: The Pugilist
...because they're pugilists. They fight bare-knuckled; that's the entire point of the class.

I can't see anyone deciding they want to play a character that's entirely based around punching and wrestling, then being irritated because they're not proficient with guns.

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:58 pm
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Post Re: The Pugilist
old school gamer wrote:
I don't see why they can't use guns. I can see this being a big turn off for many players.


Most people running C&C/D&D type games don't have guns in their fantasy world... There's one REALLY good reason.

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 pm
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Unkbartig
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Post Re: The Pugilist
old school gamer wrote:
I don't see why they can't use guns. I can see this being a big turn off for many players.

Between The deflect, the fast movement they really don't need it, give them a gun and they may start to become over powered, if the player is really upset strongly encourage an arcanist to take bulletproof and cast it on the pugilist at the start of battle


Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:45 pm
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Post Re: The Pugilist
Indeed, Dracyian. Or encourage the player to multiclass into a class that does permit guns.

But really, it's not so much an issue of being overpowered as it is what the Pugilist IS. You never, for example, see Sailor Steve Costigan with a 6-shooter.

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:28 pm
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Post Re: The Pugilist
Arduin wrote:
old school gamer wrote:
I don't see why they can't use guns. I can see this being a big turn off for many players.


Most people running C&C/D&D type games don't have guns in their fantasy world... There's one REALLY good reason.


I might be misinterpreting you, but this isn't relevant to Amazing Adventures, which uses the same core rules as C&C, but is its own game, not set in a "fantasy" world (unless you count urban fantasy).

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Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:29 pm
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