Troll Lord Games

I may tweak this some more. I was looking at the "numbers", and they still looked too high to me, so I got rid of Invulnerability and one other power, and lowered my "Octopus" power to a 3 until I get a real good look at how much a "Package" reduces the costs for powers, because by my calculations, with the drawbacks, I should have 8 ranks worth of powers. Right now I have it at 9. Once I figure out how much "packages" reduce costs by, I'll know the correct totals to have.

So...

"Theme: A theme is a special type of package where a group of powers are collected in packages that are connected to each other through a single concept for the Hero. The theme initially comes with three powers, and these powers are each equal to one-half of the power ranks placed into the theme. For example, a theme with 4 power ranks would have three powers, each power having rank 2. Additional powers outside the initial three can each be purchased for the theme at a rate of 1 power slot for every two ranks of power." page 21 Victorious RPG.

So my theme is bought at Rank 4, so I get 3 of my powers at Rank 2. That leaves me with 4 more Power slots. With which I can buy 8 ranks worth of powers. However, as I read it, all powers can be no more than Rank 2. Thats actually a problem, because that forces me to broaden my "Theme". I think I can prevent this by simply spending my Power Slots to buy more skills rather than powers. Which is fine, since there are skills I want to have to go with my "Theme" anyways.

So when I rewrite this all the powers I have listed will be at Rank 2. Plus I will have a good bit more skills.

Victory Points are most fully explained on page 48.

This is what my character is trying to look like, via his visible manifestations of his Psycho-Kinesis. Obviously he can't look quit that real, or good, but this is the imagery I am going for.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/attachment ... tid=156234

Rhuvein! Your setting is amazing. I really felt like I was there: cobblestones underfoot and the shout of surprise from the stricken woman. The sinking heart seeing that mad detective rush off into what had to be a trap. I really could see the mists swirling away with the dissipating bomb smoke and the feel of the cold heavy gate when I pushed it open -- revealing the group of 'plumbers' (as the detective joked) and that monster that seemed to appear out of nowhere. Zāo gāo! Just when Wellington thought she had seen it all.

Hope we can work out the kinks because this is a game I really want to play. I am sorry I quit early. I just got so tired all of a sudden.

Penny-Whistle wrote:
Hope we can work out the kinks because this is a game I really want to play. I am sorry I quit early. I just got so tired all of a sudden.

I think the kinks are perfectly able to be worked out. I was under the impression that we had them worked out last night, and now I have an even clearer understanding of character creation, in particular with the use of the "packages".

So unless we are going to do the Grim setting, we should be good. If we are going grim, then we need some guidelines on how to power down our characters below the minimums established in the book. IE do we want a game where we only have 1 or 2 supernatural powers each? No use of drawbacks or packages to increase that, and so on...

Penny-Whistle wrote:Rhuvein! Your setting is amazing. I really felt like I was there: cobblestones underfoot and the shout of surprise from the stricken woman. The sinking heart seeing that mad detective rush off into what had to be a trap. I really could see the mists swirling away with the dissipating bomb smoke and the feel of the cold heavy gate when I pushed it open -- revealing the group of 'plumbers' (as the detective joked) and that monster that seemed to appear out of nowhere. Zāo gāo! Just when Wellington thought she had seen it all.

Hope we can work out the kinks because this is a game I really want to play. I am sorry I quit early. I just got so tired all of a sudden.

Thanks, Penny!

I think we'll be able to work out the kinks and I will make this work even if we have boot out some of the rules.

Tree, thanks for revisiting your character and abilities and . . .

it got me thinking about "ranks". I see they are mentioned everywhere in the book, but I don't see a good explanation of how they are used or how they work with powers, skills and abilities. Or mebbe, I'm just missing something.

So if anyone would want to help me understand how this works in the game, it would be much appreciated.

Treebore wrote:This is what my character is trying to look like, via his visible manifestations of his Psycho-Kinesis. Obviously he can't look quit that real, or good, but this is the imagery I am going for.

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/attachment ... tid=156234

Very cool!

Had another thought with regard to Dr. Octo or any super type char. Perhaps, it would be good to always have a super enemy at encounter scenes with the less than super PCs in the game.

For example, in last night's session - having The Tarantula present so that Dr. Octo has to deal with him and then the other PCs would contest with the thugs and thus the Dr. would not necessarily blow out the encounter.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

Yes. it makes sense to put people's shortcomings into play.

Usually players go seeking trouble but maybe in our case we are the hunted and always having to look over our shoulders. it feels like it might be a tricky problem to craft a story for a group of people rather than one main hero where everyone will be satisfied or feel like they are contributing. I know you are up to the task. Not sure I would be.

It could make encounter design a lot of work for the GM. On the other hand it could also add some fun problems for the characters to solve. I can imagine there will be some times and places where Wellington will be met with extreme disapproval due to her outlandish attire. Certainly she will not be able to enter some establishments.

My character wasn't really capable of fighting the thugs, even, unless he wanted to use lethal force.

Aergraith wrote:My character wasn't really capable of fighting the thugs, even, unless he wanted to use lethal force.

Not on his own. Wellington couldn't either but ...

He's a DCI; she's a homeless waif ... together they fight (watch?) crime.

It would have been a tough fight but I think we would have managed. Your telepathy could pick up on their intentions. My mesmerism could have been used to get them to stand down or something. Plus, we had that lovely gate to list among our assets. Do you have manacles or handcuffs in your inventory? Those would definitely help. And a bobby stick. I should speak to your direct superior at once if you are lacking.

I have a house rule idea. If a Copper blows his whistle -- especially if he is in his home city -- maybe he has a 1 in 4 chance of calling in a member of the night's watch or a bobby if it is during the day to assist in an arrest?

Rhuvein: I can re-do my character if you like. Maybe try a re-roll and add some shortcomings.

As for ranks.

Unless I am mistaken this is what the PDF says about ranks for Super Powers:

"As experience is gained over the course of play and class skill levels are obtained, a Hero may elect to use their Power rank (gained with each class level) to either purchase two entirely new skills or increase the rank of already chosen skills." That seems clear and Mike told us we can have multiple levels at character creation also I believe.

"The rank progression of the prospective power should use 1D6, +3 points, or 2x the effect per rank, with the die type or point bonus increasing for each additional power rank."

and then later it says:

"Many powers listed below state that certain benefits are gained with the cost of an additional power rank. Unless specifically stated in the description, this rank does not count toward the effective rank ... The Genteel Magistrate is the final determiner of appropriate power combinations and allowed advantages for any Hero.." Emphasis mine. So if I understand correctly, in the blast example on page 15, the player bought three ranks to modify the original power but only gets an effective rank of 2 when rolling.

Not sure this completely solves our problem of creating appropriate encounters for characters with wildly divergent power levels but it might help.

PW pretty much has it spot-on above. It sounds like you're working with a lot of "Grim" setting characters and 1-2 Gilded or even Grand characters? Am I misunderstanding that?

If you're running a Grim Chronicle then the best thing you can do is (as Tree noted) use power ranks for either skills or victory points. Loading up on Primes is another way to go. Finally you can limit your Grand Chronicle by disallowing packages or limiting the number of allowed Shortcomings, if all else fails.

BTW, don't forget things like "Looking for a Broom Closet", ""Dependent Mundane", and "Prior Engagement" can reduce people's ability to be on the ground immediately during a fight.

Bobbies or such used whistles the way modern police use sirens; to alert people there is trouble and to bring all nearby police to his aid. Foot patrols were standard in this era, and there were a LOT more cops on the street than nowadays, since they lacked radios or autos to move quickly to trouble spots.

Also, in a Grim setting people (including cops) will be terrified of people using weird powers; even if they act heroically. They might even try to arbitrarily arrest "strange folk", and in this era there was no such thing as police brutality. Well, as a legal charge at any rate.

Hope this helps, and let me know if you think any of this should be elaborated upon in the rules?

GM Michael

Thanks for all the thoughts, comments and replies!

I will review and post on some when I get a chance.

Enjoy your day, everyone!

Penny-Whistle wrote:

Aergraith wrote:My character wasn't really capable of fighting the thugs, even, unless he wanted to use lethal force.

Not on his own. Wellington couldn't either but ...

He's a DCI; she's a homeless waif ... together they fight crime.

It would have been a tough fight but I think we would have managed. Your telepathy could pick up on their intentions. My mesmerism could have been used to get them to stand down or something. Plus, we had that lovely gate to list among our assets. Do you have manacles or handcuffs in your inventory? Those would definitely help. And a bobby stick. I should speak to your direct superior at once if you are lacking.

I have a house rule idea. If a Copper blows his whistle -- especially if he is in his home city -- maybe he has a 1 in 4 chance of calling in a member of the night's watch or a bobby if it is during the day to assist in an arrest?

Rhuvein: I can re-do my character if you like. Maybe try a re-roll and add some shortcomings.

A quick comment on fighting the thugs . . Penny could use a wall climb and hurl rocks or pretty much anything down upon the bad guys.

Also, both of your chars are armed and if you both drew on them, they most likely would back off (I would do a roll, but it would be a very slight chance that they might move and/or attack). And if you had to fire, you could aim to hit a leg or mebbe even fire a warning shot.

I can't recall if I mentioned this in game, but for the most part bad guys getting down to O HPs are going be unconscious and not dead (from the game book).

Oh, and since Justus is a DCI, - he might very well have been able to get them to give up the purse and offer up some reduced charge in exchange for their cooperation.

hahaha I thought there would be a 1 in 4 chance for backup after a whistle blow because cops were notoriously underpaid and prone to corruption issues. Especially if he works at a desk, the ordinary coppers might not bother to help out. So maybe the 1 in 4 was generous.

I agree that the setting you made could be used against the bad guys. There were cobbles to be thrown. Both Wellington and DCI St. James have roguery and can gain higher ground when necessary. The Dr. Octopus monster obviously could take them all on handily (sorry, could not resist that one) but we weren't without resources. And like you say, as a representative of the law he has the advantage of legitimate authority.

Thanks for the note about tonight's game on the other thread. Looking forward to next week. =)

Yeah, and if I threw stones or grabbed one of their weapons it'd have to be unskilled.

Aergraith wrote:Yeah, and if I threw stones or grabbed one of their weapons it'd have to be unskilled.

Stones, yeah. But if you attempted to get in close and grab a weapon - you would most likely have been hacked to pieces. Come on DCI . . . don't forget your many experiences with thugs!

DMMike wrote:PW pretty much has it spot-on above. It sounds like you're working with a lot of "Grim" setting characters and 1-2 Gilded or even Grand characters? Am I misunderstanding that?

If you're running a Grim Chronicle then the best thing you can do is (as Tree noted) use power ranks for either skills or victory points. Loading up on Primes is another way to go. Finally you can limit your Grand Chronicle by disallowing packages or limiting the number of allowed Shortcomings, if all else fails.

BTW, don't forget things like "Looking for a Broom Closet", ""Dependent Mundane", and "Prior Engagement" can reduce people's ability to be on the ground immediately during a fight.

Bobbies or such used whistles the way modern police use sirens; to alert people there is trouble and to bring all nearby police to his aid. Foot patrols were standard in this era, and there were a LOT more cops on the street than nowadays, since they lacked radios or autos to move quickly to trouble spots.

Also, in a Grim setting people (including cops) will be terrified of people using weird powers; even if they act heroically. They might even try to arbitrarily arrest "strange folk", and in this era there was no such thing as police brutality. Well, as a legal charge at any rate.

Hope this helps, and let me know if you think any of this should be elaborated upon in the rules?

GM Michael

Primes, the buying off, does have me confused. Do Primes in this game, when chosen for the class, then possibly later as a "skill", all give a +6 to any check or save based upon that attribute? As written, for the section where we buy it as a skill, I really don't "get it". The part about, I am paraphrasing a bit here, at the Magistrates discretion, you get a bonus based upon the number of points in the skill. What does that mean? What points in the skill? We either pay for it to be a Prime, or not, then get the bonus of +6, or what? Why do you mention having a number of points in the skill?

Another question that came up for buying +5 Attribute points. Do we need Magistrate permission if we take a score to 20 or above, or when we put 20 points or more into the characters attributes? Like I took the package for the mystic stage performer (I forget the name you gave the class) and applied the +10 to one of my attributes, taking the score to a 28. Now the GM always has final say, etc... but in the book, what do you mean about the 20 points in this kind of situation?

Also, another thing that came up. Apparently I am the only comic book fan playing. So a better description of just what it means to play a "super hero" game may be of help, because I created a "comic book" type hero, basically a Psychic version of Doctor Octopus, IE my Octopus Arms are created by my Psychic powers. The others created a character with 2 or maybe 3 powers, period, because they thought that was "super" in a similar vein to perhaps Sherlock Holmes. Plus we were playing a "Gilded" game, but they made Grim type of characters. So even though I described my concept ahead of time, we still didn't end up with similar characters in power, because with the class I took, with shortcomings, and the package, I had a lot more power ranks. Like 12 power ranks to their 2 or 3. So some guide lines on that kind of stuff would be helpful.

Penny-Whistle wrote:As for ranks.

Unless I am mistaken this is what the PDF says about ranks for Super Powers:

"As experience is gained over the course of play and class skill levels are obtained, a Hero may elect to use their Power rank (gained with each class level) to either purchase two entirely new skills or increase the rank of already chosen skills." That seems clear and Mike told us we can have multiple levels at character creation also I believe.

"The rank progression of the prospective power should use 1D6, +3 points, or 2x the effect per rank, with the die type or point bonus increasing for each additional power rank."

and then later it says:

"Many powers listed below state that certain benefits are gained with the cost of an additional power rank. Unless specifically stated in the description, this rank does not count toward the effective rank ... The Genteel Magistrate is the final determiner of appropriate power combinations and allowed advantages for any Hero.." Emphasis mine. So if I understand correctly, in the blast example on page 15, the player bought three ranks to modify the original power but only gets an effective rank of 2 when rolling.

Not sure this completely solves our problem of creating appropriate encounters for characters with wildly divergent power levels but it might help.

Yeah, because two of the ranks were as the description for the power blast, then the third point enabled them to modify it to have an area
(radius) of effect, but not an increase in effective rank. If they had simply bought a third rank in their Blast power, it would have simply raised it to the next higher damage die, and raised its effective rank.

So on that note, this could answer the questions we had about how to handle my Psychic Appendages. I could have spent additional ranks to give me the additional mental arms, etc... So if I put 3 additional power points into my power, it gives me the additional arms, but my effective rank would be a 2, not a 5.

So we also need Mike to clarify if for purposes of calculating XP for leveling, would Powers spent to modify powers this way also be counted for multiplying by 100 and adding to the base to determine XP needed for the next level? Or do only actual effective ranks get used in that calculation?

You aren't the only person playing who reads comics and graphic novels. I just don't like playing a superhero in games. You've heard my reasons before.

When I was thinking of winding up the SciFi game I proposed playing Victorious after hearing Mike's description of the three levels on the podcast linked to on the forum. I liked the sound of the Grim setting very much. I liked the historical setting even more. Our group talked about the switch during game time and on the forum and I thought we had reached a consensus on taking the middle path. I am sorry we misunderstood your point of view. We weren't trying to exclude you from the decision and we should have done a check in to see how you felt because obviously a consensus was not reached.

End result: we are in a situation where playing a superhero seems important to you. If it will save Rhuvein's game I would be willing to roll up a superhero.

Hey all,

Ok, I'll try to hit all these I can.

1. Remember that just because you get multiple appendages doesn't mean you get multiple attacks. You still only have 1 action per round unless you get Lightning Speed. What is the point then? Well you can hold multiple things at the same time like single shot weapons, prisoners, etc..

2. Yes additional ranks in a power increase the xp cost, even if they don't increase the effective rank total of a given power. When in doubt, take the higher rank total between effective and actual.

3. You get a Prime in the class as noted in the book, like Castles & Crusades. You can "buy" other Primes as you wish through the Skills system. You cannot double up primes in V. any more than in C&C, or did I misunderstand that one Tree?

4. Victorious, I will admit, was originally designed as a superhero RPG. However, I am also a fan of "low power" Victorian games and fiction such as Sherlock Holmes and Carnacki the Ghost Finder. These gentlemen have abilities above the average schmoe, but nothing truly super-powerful. That's why the Grim Chronicle was included; to allow for low power (and possibly more lethal) games. To compare, Victorious Grand Chronicle is the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes RPG, Victorious Gilded Chronicle is more like the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie (not comic), and Grim is more like Chaosium's Cthulhu by Gaslight.

Is it the consensus I need to explain the differences between chronicles in the book more clearly?


Thanks again for all the feedback!

Mike

DMMike wrote:Hey all,

Ok, I'll try to hit all these I can.

1. Remember that just because you get multiple appendages doesn't mean you get multiple attacks. You still only have 1 action per round unless you get Lightning Speed. What is the point then? Well you can hold multiple things at the same time like single shot weapons, prisoners, etc..

2. Yes additional ranks in a power increase the xp cost, even if they don't increase the effective rank total of a given power. When in doubt, take the higher rank total between effective and actual.

3. You get a Prime in the class as noted in the book, like Castles & Crusades. You can "buy" other Primes as you wish through the Skills system. You cannot double up primes in V. any more than in C&C, or did I misunderstand that one Tree?

4. Victorious, I will admit, was originally designed as a superhero RPG. However, I am also a fan of "low power" Victorian games and fiction such as Sherlock Holmes and Carnacki the Ghost Finder. These gentlemen have abilities above the average schmoe, but nothing truly super-powerful. That's why the Grim Chronicle was included; to allow for low power (and possibly more lethal) games. To compare, Victorious Grand Chronicle is the old TSR Marvel Super Heroes RPG, Victorious Gilded Chronicle is more like the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie (not comic), and Grim is more like Chaosium's Cthulhu by Gaslight.

Is it the consensus I need to explain the differences between chronicles in the book more clearly?


Thanks again for all the feedback!

Mike

What is confusing me is why you wrote in you get a bonus based upon the number of points in the skill. If all it amounts to is buying another Prime, why are points in the skill mentioned? Is that simply some how alluding to buying multiple Primes? Because it sounds to me like you can some how put points in it, beyond simply buying the skill, to get even further bonus' above and beyond he +6, yet I see nothing to further indicate that. So I simply find it confusing.

Penny-Whistle wrote: End result: we are in a situation where playing a superhero seems important to you. If it will save Rhuvein's game I would be willing to roll up a superhero.

I'm just baffled by the whole problem. I gave a clear description of where I was going with my character, no one said anything about it being a problem, I even verified before finalizing my character that the "power level" was Gilded, not Grim, then all of a sudden my character is a big problem and now we are talking about not even playing Victorious. So yeah, I am baffled. However, if this is now actually a "Grim" level game, I am fine with creating a much less powerful character to make everyone happy. It just would have been nice if someone has said up front, "Hey, those two are making really weak, barely super powered characters, why don't you do the same instead of creating a fully Gilded power level character?" I would have said, "OK, I will do that." Instead I was told every step of the way, that sounds great, cool, go with that! Then BAM!!! So now its looking like I ruined the game because I created the super hero I said I was going to play. So yeah, I am very confused about the whole situation.

Well, I'm certainly partly responsible for some of the confusion or misunderstanding of the Victorious world and the type of game that a GM would want to run and how the characters chosen will work. I'm still trying to get my head and hands around the rules and probably didn't realize until we played just how powerful the supermankind type would be.

I did like Treebore's character concept and thought it might work in either a grim or gilded world, but after our session I think we all realized that it won't work as created. But perhaps if can figure out how to downgrade the power level so that Octo is more like any starting character - entry level.

But if trying to downgrade is not to Tree's liking - mebbe we can put Octo on hold for now and Tree can create a non super character.

I'm still getting caught up on all the discussion and thanks to everyone for posting.

Let's just solve the problem and skip the drama. Games are meant to be fun. And we are a fun group.

We didn't know what you were doing because you created the character on the day of the game and so nobody (you or anyone else) had time to consider the implications. A Dr. Octopus character is a great idea but I don't agree that psychokinesis is a good fit. I think that all the things those tentacles want to do (and the number of them) can bought from descriptions in the book that have added in some reasonable limits.

A tentacle (mechanical or psychic) could be considered an Appendage costing one point. If the appendage wants to do things requiring a strength check that costs another. If you want those tentacles to have reach then that power can be bought from Elasticity. So each tentacle should probably cost 3 points. If you want multiple attacks/actions then that ability also needs to be bought from Lightning Speed maybe. So a 4 tentacled Dr Octopus is at the very least a 12 point character. That does not compare well to Wellington's 4 points. Put yourself in the place of GM trying to create an encounter for a group like that and perhaps you can see the problem.

Dr. Octopus got me thinking about how a person could build Spider-Man. And nicely enough the game supports it. I like that kind of flexibility very much.

Spider-Man needs at least one point in Elasticity to do his web slinging travel and probably another to support his weight; a point in Entrap to do the Webbing thing on criminals; Intuition to cover his Spider Senses; and, Spider Climb -- self explanatory. Most of these can be strengthened by adding power levels so there would be room to improve as the character levels up. What is nice is his build could be condensed into a Gadget package. Nice because it means that it could sometimes jam, run out of juice or even get damaged.

His skills? Science; Profession (Photographer) and Acrobatics for all those flips and somersaults.

Shortcomings: Looking for a Broom Closet and Secret Identity.

Nobody has ruined the game. btw. We are all new to it and just working out the kinks. I am still looking forward to playing with everyone. Where did those low level thugs get a smoke bomb!?!?! Bears investigation, no?

DMMike wrote:It sounds like you're working with a lot of "Grim" setting characters and 1-2 Gilded or even Grand characters? Am I misunderstanding that?

If you're running a Grim Chronicle then the best thing you can do is (as Tree noted) use power ranks for either skills or victory points. Loading up on Primes is another way to go. Finally you can limit your Grand Chronicle by disallowing packages or limiting the number of allowed Shortcomings, if all else fails.

BTW, don't forget things like "Looking for a Broom Closet", ""Dependent Mundane", and "Prior Engagement" can reduce people's ability to be on the ground immediately during a fight.

I think I originally thinking more along the lines of grim characters with mebbe one or two superpowers and thought they I could mix/split/merge the various supernatures, but I can that might be problematic or that the GM would need to be ultra prepared with scenarios and bad guys.

So we are discussing how to make this work and thanks for those suggestions!

Treebore wrote:It just would have been nice if someone has said up front, "Hey, those two are making really weak, barely super powered characters, why don't you do the same instead of creating a fully Gilded power level character?" I would have said, "OK, I will do that." Instead I was told every step of the way, that sounds great, cool, go with that! Then BAM!!! So now its looking like I ruined the game because I created the super hero I said I was going to play. So yeah, I am very confused about the whole situation.

Again, that's my fault for not yet understanding the rules and not realizing the power level would be so awesome for Octo. I had thought that mixing the supernatures and having a supermankind char might work (in my mind I was thinking that he would be an entry level char who would gain his supers later on after leveling up). So the first session battle was a wake-up call to me and thus we are all trying to better understand the game.

We'll figure this out!