Troll Lord Games

Thrilled with the content but irritated by the numerous and niggling problems with the text; typos, inconcistencies, unclear language... *sigh*

While I know that their are typos in it, I've read through a large part of it. Can you cite some inconsistent or unclear parts of it? I wasn't looking at it critically when I read through it so I am curious as to what needs attention.

Breakdaddy wrote:
While I know that their are typos in it, I've read through a large part of it. Can you cite some inconsistent or unclear parts of it? I wasn't looking at it critically when I read through it so I am curious as to what needs attention.

I wii post some details this evening. It is hard to type lengthy posts on an iPad...

I think we've been down this road before, but it's not like the Trolls have the army of editors and proofreaders etc. that Paizo or WotC have. Yeah, the little problems can be annoying, but if I enjoy a game, I'm willing to overlook some minor things that, when all's said and done, don't really interfere with my ability to enjoy the game.

I've only read about a third of it so far. Nothing irritating has popped up as of yet.
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I glanced over the product to get an idea of what was in it. I'll read the ones that seem interesting (sorry, I just don't need new stats for halflings, for example) but I was glad to see things like kangaroo and walrus, oddly enough...
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Serl's Corner

Read a good piece of it myself and so far nothing terribly irritating to report. Though I am not above being irritated by the smallest of things.

Morgan

I won't get into it too deeply, but here is just a sampling of what bothered me.

* For demons and devils, they should be listed as demon (or devil), name of creature and NOT the other way around. A couple of entries are correct, but the rest are reversed.

* If the Ikle Demon is a demon, why is it not listed under D?

* The Forsaken are described as "creatures that have survived Klarglich". They are UNDEAD. They didn't survive anything!

* The Ghost Naga has a "ghost move" that is basically the same as being incorporeal. Other creatures are described as being able to become incorporeal. Why not the Ghost Naga?

* The Puala Beast is described as a Magical (blank). I assume its meant to be a magical beast, but the description makes it seem much more like an aberration.

I could continue on, but I won't...

Let me say that I am NOT slamming the book! It is very creative and interesting and I will use it in my campaign. I just wish it was better edited. I do technical writing and editing as part of my job and I would GLADLY volunteer my time to TLG to make future books as sharp as possible. How about it Steve?

Hmmm...

Anthony, those aren't really errors or problems, more differences in style, semantic choice in description and approach - i.e. a difference in writing and design choice.... perfectly valid to voice "I would have done it this way" btw, but those don't fall under editing (except for the missing word the Puala beast) so much as preference.

Now the Trolls have always admitted to a certain Trollishness in spelling... Steve admits it first (I can be pretty sloppy myself, and I teach college hee hee), but they have brought on board an accomplished personage in Christina Stiles to edit professionally, and the improvements across the board are really showing. There will always be some that slip through - especially for smaller co's like TLG (heck, what's the WotC errata for 4e PHB at now - 20+ pages? and that with a staff over a hundred).

The other exs are just not things I would ever consider errors or problems, just perhaps differing choice on what the "right" way to present stuff in such a book is.

My two cents anyway - not disregarding your opinion there, or your own preferences in how to do things.
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I think Anthony has a point about consistency in editing, with regard to nomenclature and listing of demons and devils.

Do it whichever way you want but the golden rule is to at least maintain the same method throughout the piece. Flipping back and forth in naming style is frustrating for people trying to quickly find the creature- is it under Ikle or Demon? One should be able to at least quickly figure out which style the book is using and then apply it, not have to deal with exceptions and changes in listing style which prevent you from searching the product in a logical manner rather than having to memorise a whole bunch of quirks. I can see that being frustrating.

I cannot think why a professinal editor would make that error unless they for whatever reason just decided they didn't want so many monsters lumped together in the "D" section and not spread out over others.

zarathustra wrote:
I think Anthony has a point about consistency in editing, with regard to nomenclature and listing of demons and devils.

Do it whichever way you want but the golden rule is to at least maintain the same method throughout the piece. Flipping back and forth in naming style is frustrating for people trying to quickly find the creature- is it under Ikle or Demon? One should be able to at least quickly figure out which style the book is using and then apply it, not have to deal with exceptions and changes in listing style which prevent you from searching the product in a logical manner rather than having to memorise a whole bunch of quirks. I can see that being frustrating.

I cannot think why a professinal editor would make that error unless they for whatever reason just decided they didn't want so many monsters lumped together in the "D" section and not spread out over others.

Because the "Ickle Demon" isn't a demon in the same vein as the others, i.e. true monstrous demons & devils tied to the evils of Aihrde - they are small extraplanar wisps/dark smokes that are called demons, and can be turned. They are more creatures of the shadow realm. Hence my pt - a monster having a nomenclature of "demon" but not being a "true" demon (thus grouped with the others) is a design/semantic choice. Ikle demons are "terrified of everything around them, and seek only to hide from any light..." - not the same as the Aihrdian demons and devils earlier in the work.

Just saying.
Edit: Which, btb, is why I say it's ok to disagree, to say "I think if you use the name 'demon' it MUST be consistent" and to argue that, for instance, the Ikle should not use the nomenclature, but again... choice of design by author, not an editing issue.
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It is obvious why there are errors. They are Trolls, and they live to torment people.
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I never even noticed the seeming inconsistencies in the nomenclature. I myself have a Lake Devil monster...but it's not a devil in fact, merely what the populace calls it. The issue with the Inkl may very well fall in the same vein...though only the Trolls could answer that. If that were the case, and it was included in with the demons, then you would have a reverse inconsistency issue with the nomenclature where a creature not really a demon was included with them merely by name.

Myself...I'll ignore these minor things and simply enjoy the product.
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I wrote a plant called a Devil's Claw, just because I liked the sound of it.

I get where you're going, though. Trolls are trolls, unless they're giants.
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Serl's Corner

Go0gleplex wrote:
I never even noticed the seeming inconsistencies in the nomenclature. I myself have a Lake Devil monster...but it's not a devil in fact, merely what the populace calls it. The issue with the Inkl may very well fall in the same vein...though only the Trolls could answer that. If that were the case, and it was included in with the demons, then you would have a reverse inconsistency issue with the nomenclature where a creature not really a demon was included with them merely by name.

Myself...I'll ignore these minor things and simply enjoy the product.

Hmm yourself, Serleran and Seski have a point about perhaps they are just folk names, rather than a true classification. Serves me right for commenting on on the general point, without having actually read the book.

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
I wii post some details this evening. It is hard to type lengthy posts on an iPad...

Nothing to have to do with the CKG, but it made me chuckle to see both those words, inadvertently used in the same sentence.
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zarathustra wrote:
I cannot think why a professinal editor would make that error unless they for whatever reason just decided they didn't want so many monsters lumped together in the "D" section and not spread out over others.

The Trolls already had the book through layout when I got it, so all monsters were where they wanted them to be placed. And that is rightly their decision.

There's only so much you can change when the book is already through layout.
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Christina Stiles

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Christina Stiles wrote:
The Trolls already had the book through layout when I got it, so all monsters were where they wanted them to be placed. And that is rightly their decision.

There's only so much you can change when the book is already through layout.

I think you do a great job Christina. I just wish the Trolls would let one or two dedicated fans give their manuscripts a thorough scrubbing before releasing them in the wild. This would catch the odd editing error, as well as help iron out any rules and terminology issues. Maybe the CKG can get this treatment...

AnthonyRoberson wrote:
I think you do a great job Christina. I just wish the Trolls would let one or two dedicated fans give their manuscripts a thorough scrubbing before releasing them in the wild. This would catch the odd editing error, as well as help iron out any rules and terminology issues. Maybe the CKG can get this treatment...

Anthony, I totally agree that all products need proofreaders, no matter the company, no matter the editor. No one is infallible.

One of the issues I believe the Trolls have is the need to produce product quickly to make money to support staff in this small market (This is MY OPINION only from an outsider's perspective; I'm not speaking for Steve). This rushes a manuscript's processing, causing some steps like proofreading to be bypassed. Most of the manuscripts I've dealt with to date (excepting Fields of Battle and the CKG chapters I have) were already sent through layout to speed up product output. This severely limits what an editor can change.

At any rate, as the newest Troll, I'm going to do my best to help the Trolls make a change. It's going to take time, however, before you start seeing the results. Also, adding proofreaders is something I've brought up to Steve (and I have some folks in mind already).

Trolls move slowly, but we're making an effort to get to where the fans want the product quality to be, so please give us a little leeway while we work on this. And, of course, adding new fans will greatly help the company's ability to do more and be more effective.

Thanks.
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Christina Stiles wrote:
...Also adding proofreaders is something I've brought up to Steve (and I have some folks in mind already).

Trolls move slowly, but we're making an effort to get to where the fans want the product quality to be, so please give us a little leeway while we work on this. And, of course, adding new fans will greatly help the company's ability to do more and be more effective.

Thanks.

I would be happy to volunteer my time to make better TLG products. I love C&C and I want it to be the best game possible!

Let me just add (if it wasn't clear already) that Christina came onto the M&TA as editor very late in the process. Any errors you see in there are certainly not her fault in anyway. Christina is going to right the ship in the fans eyes, y'all just wait. Belee dat.

~O
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I'm just grateful to have stumbled upon C&C when I did because I was "drowning" in all of the 3E, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4.0 mess and really was looking for a system with a little bit of that, but with a lot more old-school feel.

As for the products and proofing, like others have said, that takes time and it will come. I've offered my time to proof and edit too, so there are plenty of us willing and able to help out...which speaks volumes for this "little" gaming company and how much the Trolls are respected.

Omote wrote:
Christina is going to right the ship in the fans eyes, y'all just wait. Belee dat.

~O

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[quote="seskis281"]Hmmm...

Now the Trolls have always admitted to a certain Trollishness in spelling... Steve admits it first (I can be pretty sloppy myself, and I teach college hee hee), but they have brought on board an accomplished personage in Christina Stiles to edit professionally, and the improvements across the board are really showing. There will always be some that slip through - quote]

TLG is a professional company in the business of selling game material. I am sure they are glad for fan support, but nothing replaces a professional editor.

I agree many things are a matter of subjectivity.

I also agree that Christina has and will make a huge difference.
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Christina Stiles wrote:
Anthony, I totally agree that all products need proofreaders, no matter the company, no matter the editor. No one is infallible.

One of the issues I believe the Trolls have is the need to produce product quickly to make money to support staff in this small market (This is MY OPINION only from an outsider's perspective; I'm not speaking for Steve). This rushes a manuscript's processing, causing some steps like proofreading to be bypassed. Most of the manuscripts I've dealt with to date (excepting Fields of Battle and the CKG chapters I have) were already sent through layout to speed up product output. This severely limits what an editor can change.

Thanks.

I understand the need for speed. But when those speedily published products hit the eyes of the reader and a lack of edits or just plain typos turns the reader off to the point they find another game or design their own game then that just adds up to customers lost.

Of all the products that are reserved in my place of honor (Briarton being one) not one of those products are there because they were published fast.

They are there because I as the reader have found them superior to the masses of other stuff.

I am just glad TLG is there and doing what they do. I feel like I am valued as a customer both for my input, and not just for my for my dollar.

perhaps if that other company had realized this I would not have discovered TLG.
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Joe wrote:
I understand the need for speed. But when those speedily published products hit the eyes of the reader and a lack of edits or just plain typos turns the reader off to the point they find another game or design their own game then that just adds up to customers lost.

Of all the products that are reserved in my place of honor (Briarton being one) not one of those products are there because they were published fast.

They are there because I as the reader have found them superior to the masses of other stuff.

Being disconnected from it, I don't know the specifics. I'll be up front and come right out with that. We, as a target audience, are constantly demanding new, bigger and better things. How do you, as the publisher of a game, keep your current customers engaged and happy while still trying to attract a new fan base? Harbinger's Variant is a great start on the attracting new fans front. But as for the rest of us, we're a pretty sophisticated audience in terms of what we want out of our games. We don't just crave new rules and crunchy bits. We live for inspiration. Many of us are the results of the "Products of your imagination" motto. Many of us are highly educated, and understand the importance of effective communication.

Bottom line...I'm content knowing that the Trolls understand my need for new product, and are willing to put products out there that achieve what I'm looking for. Conceptually, their products have been consistently well thought out, playtested and aesthetically pleasing in print for the most part. Based on the additions they've made to the company, I also know that they are committed to putting out the best product they possibly can. There's some awesome stuff on the horizon. I think with the additions to the staff, they'll constitute some of the best material that has been released for C&C (proofreading/editing issues included). Again, I'm all about picking my fights anymore. I'm too old a dog to get irritated by every little thing. I know they're working on editing...that's enough for me. I look forward to the improvement.

Good points Sir!

I prefer TLG over glossy pages, full color androgenous art, and splat books any day!

They are also responsible to a degree, of getting me involved in gaming to the point that I am.

I have learned a lot about people, games, and myself in the last few years and it quite honestly relates back to what 2 brothers and a friend I have never met have done.

When it comes to quality, give me imagination over splat and gimmicks any day!
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But... gimmicks make for a great mechanical edge to rules light role-play.
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Serl's Corner

serleran wrote:
But... gimmicks make for a great mechanical edge to rules light role-play.

Maybe we have different ideas of what a gimmick is. I never realized how many land mines words spread before us.

Gimmicks to me are just schemes to sell more product and has nothing to do with game material.

Win 1000 dollars!

Writing rules so that you are almost required to use minis, chips, or some other additional expence.

Switching the cover and a few words of rehashed material and claiming it's a "new" edition.

And I would even say, after watching that other game, that making changes to the game strictly driven by bottom line numbers and an imaginary customer base, or in other words screwing your game up in order to pander to a new set of customers is a gimmick.

Selling one dimensional adventures under the guise of full color niftiness and pretty maps would be a gimmick.

packaging the same game in different packages for the sake of sales would be a gimmick.

And heres a gimmick I wish TLG would use, usimng sexy half dressed women to plug your product...now thats a gimmick I can get behind...literally!
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AnthonyRoberson wrote:
I won't get into it too deeply, but here is just a sampling of what bothered me.

Let me say that I am NOT slamming the book! It is very creative and interesting and I will use it in my campaign. I just wish it was better edited. I do technical writing and editing as part of my job and I would GLADLY volunteer my time to TLG to make future books as sharp as possible. How about it Steve?

Hallo!

I am extremely impressed with Christina's editing and work on the projects that I have sent. Any problems with content or editing is not on her shoulders nor Peters (with layout) but with mine. Christina and Tim (the second editor on MT) and Nicole (our third editor) all do a very, very good job. I feel now that we have the best editors we've had to date. So for all the hard work on MT of Aihrde, Christina and Tim: a hearty thank and job well done. I am more than satisfied with the outcome.

Concerning editing in general. We've had editors since the beginning. Its not that we didn't have editors. Its a quality control issue on editors that has been the problem; who watches the watchmen type of thing. Its difficult to gauge the value of an editor unless you yourself can edit his edited work, and this is very difficult to do unless you have a staff large enough to do that and we do not, nor have we ever had such a staff.

So many folks say, in place of staff take on volunteers. This is a way to go; but my experience is not very good as volunteers (which we've used in loads in the past) are filled with heart, but are far more governed by their own lives, jobs, wives, kids, and their struggle against the man to prove any kind of long term advantage. I say this from experience as we tried this in the past with several d20 titles. It proved a nightmare in which books became a tangle of delays...which TLG was once again held foot to the fire for, and as always we took it in the chin.

In the end publishing is about deadlines. And that is the rub. Its not a matter of revenue (though that certainly plays into it); its a matter of actually releasing the book. We can have Tim do the first edit (as we did here), layout the book, and then have Christina do the second edit (as we did here) and then send it over to Anthony, and then over to Omote and then over to Breakdaddy and then over to Serl and then over to Joe and then over to Santa Claus and still there would be mistakes in the book. But the book would never be released.

I'm being a little sarcastic of course. Basically my point is that I have to trust my editors. I do.

But its actually worse than that as their are styles of writing that various editors recognize and others that some don't. Tim has a PhD in English and teaches and writes in New England (or did, now he's fishing on the Spring River in Arkansas) and his use of the comma is VASTLY different than Christina (equally educated and published); so who do we go with? I have to choose. Why me? Because at some point that book has to make press. Throw in a volunteer editor into the mix and your done for.

Someone on the line has to say, this is where the book stops, this is where it is done, this is where we publish it.

That said, we continue to strive for better editing in our books and we will continue to do so. Always better. What you have with the M&T of Aihrde is the first actual collaborative work between our two editors Tim Burns and Christina Stiles. Tim was the lead on this one as he was deep into editing before we brought Christina on. Christina is the lead on the CKG and Tim will follow.

I'm very confident, looking at the quality of the M&T of Aihrde and the fact that Anthony's comments here were structural/layout issues and rather subjective criticisms (the tasmanian devil isn't really a lord of hell ). So that is encouraging.

NOW if you would like to help. And we would love the help. Please, send me a private PM (is that redundant) with comments and criticisms and I'll incorporate them into the manuscript and give you credit on websites, posts and in the book. This is very helpful.

This rambled a bit and I hope didn't sound upset or anything because I know you all are fans and are working with TLG to make C&C this best damned game on the market! And for this we all here appreciate you and the efforts to help. So to you a hearty TROLLZAH!

Thanks,

Steve
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