Troll Lord Games

D&D 3.5 player in the process of changing over to C&C (every D&D session that is 75% arguing about the rules and 25% playing makes me want to vomit).

I really like the simple, fast rules of C&C, but it is obvious that the non-caster classes are going to hopelessly underpowered at higher levels.

Has anyone come up with something nice and simple that helps alleviate the problem? (I am familiar with "exploding damage" - anytime you roll max on an attack, add another dice. It will help, but it is way too random, looking for something a bit more stable and reliable)

Thanks,

Eric

Erc -- I don't agree with your assessment of high level casters as compared to fighting types. Don't assume 3.5 effects for spells you are familiar with. Crack open that PHB and read how much more deadlier the C&C versions are, and soon you will note as many of us C&Cers here do -- that if you can get your spellcaster to survive, you will have a deadly character.

And welcome to the Crusade.

--Ghul

Ghul, you read it wrong. He's saying the casters are significantly more powerful than the non-casters because of the fact that damage spells, especially and specifically, are uncapped and the number of them available are high. The OP wants a means to make the non-spellcasters (ie, fighters, rogues, monks, and whatnot) to be "not wussied."

Now, that said, seeing as a fighter is the only class (aside from monk) to get extra attacks, the damage they will do is significantly higher than any other class as they have the best chance to hit, and will deal damage to their foe, unlike a spellcaster who must rely on not failing a SR check or the beast having an immunity or resistance or a save allowed, reducing the effectiveness of the spell in the first place. Even with some means of DR (needing some type of magical weapon), the fighter will still do more damage in the long haul since they will (or assumed to have) whatever it takes to penetrate said DR and few reduce damage sustained.

Rogues at high level are simply disturbing, especially if played right, which means "stay the hell out of direct melee" which is what they are supposed to be doing at lower levels, anyway.

Each class has something, really. Assassins will just kill you outright. Rangers have their nasty +level vs bad humanoids (remember it applies to classed humanoids, too, so if you have a 14th level orc shaman, he's going to be getting a serious beat down by the ranger...)

So, yeah, technically a caster can open a can of whoop ass and blast something away, but he can only do that X amount of time, and "recharging" takes time.... a rule which should be strictly enforced at high levels, making those all-powerful spells precious and not to be used at whim.

Other means to limit casters to monitor and moderate the spell selection they have. Granted a wizard or illusionist gets one spell / level for free, but that doesn't mean the CK has to say "ok, you can have that one."

So, I suggest:

Enforce the memorization times.

Enforce casting time and disruption effects (nothing kills a caster faster than a continual damage effect like poisons that deal one damage / round -- no casting of spells and it slowly whittles their few HPs down, and they often don't have very good saves against poison muahah)

Strictly monitor range and area of effect, including the harming of allies

Provide situations where the caster needs more than damage spells to prove the adventure successful (this is even more true if you control the types and powers of gained or created magic items) so that they do not carry five fireballs around each doing 15d6...

Make sure negative implications of spells are enforced such as the -1 HP permanent loss from haste on a faield Con save

--Ghul

Greetings and welcome erc1971/Eric!

Enjoy the game,

Rhu.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

My group is 8th to 10th level now, so I have been looking at this as well. I think I will keep awarding class powers at higher levels and also allowing things like the Paladins "smite evil" to increase in number of times per day. I am also thinking of adopting 2E's #attacks for the "sub" fighters.

There are definitely a number of things to consider, but I am going to be very cautious. I would rather under power them than over power them. So if I decide I am giving too little, I can always add more. I can take away too, but I would rather be able to add.

I am going to be examining this once our group gets up around level 5 and 6, when the spellcasters will begin to have some significant single hit kill spells.

Right now, I am vacillating between "Exploding Damage" or doing something with the "Heroicly Imbued" magical item creation 'system' I am using to ramp up the damage of certain weapons.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

Nelzie wrote:
I am going to be examining this once our group gets up around level 5 and 6, when the spellcasters will begin to have some significant single hit kill spells.

Right now, I am vacillating between "Exploding Damage" or doing something with the "Heroicly Imbued" magical item creation 'system' I am using to ramp up the damage of certain weapons.

Nelzie is my DM - he is the one who introduced me to C&C (and in case you are wondering, I am playing a caster in his game (a cleric) )

Unlike D&D, Armor Class appears to not get insane. So, it does look like the melee oriented classes will be hitting more often than not. But, in D&D they can get up to 4 attacks (even though the last one will never hit), and a line of over complicated feat to give them more bonuses to damage (power attack, specialization, improved criticals, leap attack, etc, etc). In C&C a fighter might do 1d8+2 damage at 1st level. At 6th level, that might be 1d8+5. My experience tells me they won't be keeping up with the casters, even if they are using some spells for things other than damage.

Nezlie's idea of exploding damage might work. I was just wondering if anyone out there had any other simple, easy to impliment ideas ( I do not want to complicate things needlessly, D&D does that well enough!). Exploding damage is just so random - you may not get any bonus damage for 5 hits, then get an extra 30 the next hit.

Eric

Why the power of a class must be measured in terms of "damage"?

There are many activities that dictate how a class is useful in a setting, and certainly not everything reduces to combat.

I guess this "tactical" attitude is the strongest to amend for those accustomed to 3.x, where all characters become combat monsters.

So, think out of the box, and leave those battle mats behind you!

Cheers,

Antonio

P.S.

And welcome to the Crusade!

Yep. Antonio has it right.

The usefulness of a character is not predicated on the damage he or she can dish out.

There is absolutely no need to give non-spellcasters something extra at high level to compensate and "level" the playing field. Every class brings something essential to the game, and should be measured in terms of overall utility, not in terms of damage capability.

How do you quantify the presence of a rogue able to pick locks and disarm traps?

How do you quantify the ability of a cleric to prevent deaths in the party and extend adventuring time (rather than having to go back to civilization to heal after one battle)?

How useful is the fighter to that high-level wizard when melee attacks are imminent and the wizard's spells are at high risk for disruption?

In the end, the game is flexible, but understanding why things are done the way they are is important before changing things.
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Sir Fiffergrund, Lord Marshal of the Castle and Crusade Society.

He Who Hides Behind The Elephant's Back

rabindranath72 wrote:
Why the power of a class must be measured in terms of "damage"?

There are many activities that dictate how a class is useful in a setting, and certainly not everything reduces to combat.

I guess this "tactical" attitude is the strongest to amend for those accustomed to 3.x, where all characters become combat monsters.

So, think out of the box, and leave those battle mats behind you!

Cheers,

Antonio

P.S.

And welcome to the Crusade!

I have never played D&D3.5 myself and won't. It just isn't my style.

I have played plenty of BECMI D&D and AD&D2e as well as a plethora of other RPGs. You are correct in saying that combat is not the be-all/end-all of a character class.

However, there is one thing that I recall from all those years of gaming. Even with a well balanced (class wise) party, the ramping up of hit points, with minimal increases (Due mostly to magical plusses) in damage output of melee and or ranged combatants, aside from arcane/divine spellcasters, can cause combat to begin to drag on.

Personally, I would rather minimize the amount of time in combat, while remaining rather faithful to M&T Entries by providing some method for Melee and Ranged classes to remain at the "head" of combat in terms of averaging out damage. This would allow me to more quickly return to the PC/NPC Interaction aspect of the game, which has started to become more and more enjoyable as the players are beginning to "find" their character's personalities.

My latest thought on this is either a flat damage bonus or a doubling up of damage at certain levels. This would work best if tied into the "Heroicly Imbued" magical item creation system that I have been working on and thus only really be an option for the PCs and notable NPC (Heroes and Villains). Thus, the PCs themselves can appear to mow through mooks and have to use more style and strategy against the real opposition.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

Hmm,

here is what I have done once (In a 12th to 16th level game)

At 9th level, double the weapon base damage (That is, just the dice) of all Warrior classes (those with BTH = level -1 or better) ... at 17th level tripple the base damage of those classes. Worked great no one was complaining.

the other classes (exept for wizard and illusionist) get double base damage at level 17.

I had a critical system that helped the rogue and assassin, and it was great fun. (You crit at nat. 20. the bonus damage depends on your class and level: Warriors: 1-8 - 1d10, 9-16 - 2d10, 17+ - 3d10, Rogue and Assassin: 1-8 - 3d6, 9-16 - 6d6, 17+ - 9d6, all casters: 1-8 - 1d6, 9-16 - 2d6, 17+ - 3d6)

Rogues and Assassins may cause a crit with a 19 or 20 at level 9, but only if they score a regular hit. (In my game, only a nat 20 was an automatic hit) At level 17 they may even crit with a 18+. If they use weapons not usable for a backstab (ie. Longer than their arm) they make critical hits just like warriors do.

We introduced these rules after some overly long combats, which just did not want to end because the the wizards was glued to the celing and at another occassion he was sleeping and levitating (A fight against Drow )

Well, I advise you to get a copy of AD&D 2nd Edition's High Level Campaigns from the Dungeon master Option line, while the line itself is not impressive the book ash some very good information and advice fort Dungeon masters, and with C&C closeness to that edition it is even mreo useful than with D&D 3.X

In the book you will find Skills for High level Characters, taking from them even 3rd edition has made some now widespread concepts come true, for warriors you will see: Adaptation, All-around Attack, Bravery, Captivate, Death Blow, Frighten/Challenge, Hardiness, Inner Focus, Signature Item, Signature Mount and Sense Danger.

If you think Rogue may also need a little edge, then the skills listed for them there are: Adaptation, Classify Traps, Evasion, Fall/Jump, featherfoot, Improvised Attack, Inner Focus, Nondetection, Sense Danger, Shadow Flight, Shadow Travel.

While casters do get skills they get a lot less available to them, Wizards may choose among Mental Focus, Signature Item and Spell Culpturing while Priests choose from Divine Strength, Divine Voice, Divine Will, Detect Deception, Eminence, Invincibility, Loan and Smite.

I liked the book a lot back in 2nd edition days, and I am glad it may actually get a little more use with C&C, if I egt to play it instead of 3.X, that is.
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"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.

Hmmm. Well, how useful any of these comments are is going to depend an awful lot on how you run your games. As in, what kind of "feel" you're trying for. Most of the people around here seem to favor things more on the AD&D side, with a fair degree of "grim and gritty".

Me, I favor more cinematic / over the top / looser style. If you're just looking at a way to up the damage output of non-casters, there's a couple of ways to go (again, depending on the style you want)...

One is simply extra attacks per round. I don't think it's going to make combat go longer, that's more a function of escalating hit points and so forth. Something like every... +3 BtH equals another attack? For the fighter, replace its 10th level free attack with a free parry. I'm sure that won't be a popular suggestion, but something to think about.

If you just want to try and up the damage output, you could always have something like weapon damage + half BtH rounded down. Only people that benefit from it usually are the Fighting types (Fighters, Knights, Rangers etc). Rogues can get the same bonus, but only for a back attack (not a sneak attack). Their extra damage can be added either before the damage is multiplied, or afterwards.

Honestly, when you talk about "underpowered" and "high level", you're talking about something that's pretty subjective. For example, there's a pretty different feel to a game if you're talking "high level" and "high power" in a Greyhawk game compared to a Forgotten Realms game. And if you're using a homebrew world or a conversion, it's even more difficult to pin down.

Now, if you want to go a completely different way...

There's a book called the Second World Sourcebook. It's a d20 product, and its focus is on doing that kind of "characters from the modern day find themselves in a fantasy world" kind of thing. Kind of a goofy old-school idea.

Anyways, one of the interesting ideas in it is the Influence system. Basically, characters can build Influence, and Influence can be traded in and used for various things and favors from organizations.

What's that have to do with underpowered characters? Well, instead of power being measured on the pure damage side, the non-casters are able to benefit from Influence instead. Wizards have the reputation of being a rather unsavory, untrusting/untrustworthy and solitary lot. Even if there's Wizard guilds in the world, this is a pretty common stereotype. Priests are a grim and humorless lot, all about getting money and souls for their gods and so forth.

So as the fighting types have grown in experience and developed reputations as champions and so forth, they become better able to use their reputations to achieve certain things. Taking this sort of approach can help to shift the tone of the game from simply bigger and badder monsters, to more of a campaign world influencing type of game.

Give us an idea of the kind of game you're playing, and what you expect to be happening with higher level characters, and we'll be able to give some potentially more useful feedback. "High Magic" doesn't mean anything, because we don't have a baseline to work from. "Forgotten Realms type with..." is much easier to work from, or "Conanesque but with magic that doesn't twist your mind" or "Fafhrd & Greymouser but with a bit more magic..." all help to give a better idea for the feel you want.

Scurvy_Platypus wrote:
Give us an idea of the kind of game you're playing, and what you expect to be happening with higher level characters, and we'll be able to give some potentially more useful feedback. "High Magic" doesn't mean anything, because we don't have a baseline to work from. "Forgotten Realms type with..." is much easier to work from, or "Conanesque but with magic that doesn't twist your mind" or "Fafhrd & Greymouser but with a bit more magic..." all help to give a better idea for the feel you want.

Check out the site: www.nelzie.net this is my site and is the setting of the campaign. A few things are slightly out of date right now, such as the map of the world. It's being updated and will be replaced soon.

As for the theme, I am reaching for a heroic campaign, where the heroes become larger than life yet don't look like they came from Krypton. These are the people that by action or inaction can change the world for the better or allow it to fall into chaos and darkness. The Heroes, in the form of the PCs, are unknowingly "The Chosen Ones", what they choose to do will determine the fate of entire kingdoms.

There are NPC Heroes as well as NPC Anti-Heroes (Villains) and they do have a similar edge to the PC Heroes, they just aren't able to change the course of events in the same manners as PCs are. For example, if the PCs pass on a quest whose failure has dire consequences, some NPC Heroes will take it up and if they do end up completing the quest, the results will end up in more of a tie, than a win for the side of Good.

Beyond that, these Heroic beings have greater power than run of the mill folk. Thus, my creation of the NPC Soldier Class and NPC Priest Class, both of which are similar to PC Classes, but lacking significantly in power at the same class level as the PC class they are based upon. Even with all of this, PC Heroes and NPC Heroes aren't "Superman" in comparison to non-heroes.

Wanting to keep things simple, I would rather see increased damage from single attacks as they level. Which will allow them to easily rip through hordes of nearly equally powerful, yet un-heroic NPCs and Monsters. Then, when they face Anti-Heroes, they will feel the power that they wield used against themselves, as the Anti-Hero is also similarly "blessed". Which will be bringing even more risk and challenge to fighting their nemesis.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

Nelzie wrote:
Thus, my creation of the NPC Soldier Class and NPC Priest Class, both of which are similar to PC Classes, but lacking significantly in power at the same class level as the PC class they are based upon. Even with all of this, PC Heroes and NPC Heroes aren't "Superman" in comparison to non-heroes.

Wanting to keep things simple, I would rather see increased damage from single attacks as they level. Which will allow them to easily rip through hordes of nearly equally powerful, yet un-heroic NPCs and Monsters. Then, when they face Anti-Heroes, they will feel the power that they wield used against themselves, as the Anti-Hero is also similarly "blessed". Which will be bringing even more risk and challenge to fighting their nemesis.

Ah. Hmmm. Well, I don't think I've really got anything useful to contribute. My inclination would be to simply use "mook" rules and move on, but I favor a much looser feel. Thanks for the clarifications though.

Yeah, I'd go wth something like... at levels 10 and above (for warrior-types) they kill one creature of 1 HD or less per point of damage inflicted, assuming enough opponents are within range for said effect to happen (that is, if a fighter were being attacked by only three mooks, he can only kill three mooks, even if he rolls 14 damage.) All other classes get the same benefit, but must wait for 15th level. Maybe at level 15 give the fighter types a 2 HD benefit.

This would make them very good at mass combat... but, if you want for ordinary combat... I still suggest what I did already, but you can also do this:

A character gains an additional attack (as though having the extra attack ability of the fighter class, changed as noted here) whenever their BtH - 6 is 1+; additional attacks are based on BtH - 12, and then BtH - 18. This means a fighter gains an extra attack at 7th level, and a second extra attack at 13th, and lastly, a 4th attack at 19th. None of these attacks suffers a penalty. Dual-wielding adds a single attack with the off-hand, but otherwise applies as normal (including penalties to the primary weapon.)

Alternatively: At 8th level, a fighter gains the ability to inflict grievous wounds whenever he strikes a creature. This attack must exceed the AC of the victim by 5, but if it does, delivers an additional amount of damage equal to the fighter's Strength score. Other characters gain this ability at 14th level.

Nelzie,

I'm new to C&C but not to roleplaying. The question I'd like to ask is, "Have you ever tried to do an epic campaign with low level characters."

I did it with the Old D&D Cyclopedia. The characters started at 2nd level (because first level sucks) and the campaign ended before the Thief reached 6th. It ran for 6 months playing once a week for 3-6 hrs.

And it was magical.

We saved the world from a goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear invasion with a VERY Tolkienesque feel. The only thing I kludged in was Cantrips from the AD&D Unearthed Arcana for the Magic-user and he used them extensively for everything.

The battles were nailbiting. The dungeons were captivating. The magic was...well...magical. And the best thing was that at no time was there any doubt in the group that they were the heroes and that they saved the world.

The trick was that every NPC and challenge were similarly low level. The King was a second level fighter. His Champion was a third level fighter. The Crown Princess was a first level mage. They NEEDED us. The epic final battle was a giant melee using the mass battle rules from the Cyclopedia; a scratch built army strengthened by the heroes and the magical weapons they had found against the Goblin Horde. A four hour session to a nailbiting cliffhanger followed the next week by a triumph narrowly pulled from the jaws of defeat and accolades for everyone. It was GREAT!

All this leads me to my suggestion. Why not stay low level and allow the heroics to come through roleplaying? Then you won't need to worry about high level balance.

Just my two cents.

C. S. Bone

csbone wrote:
All this leads me to my suggestion. Why not stay low level and allow the heroics to come through roleplaying? Then you won't need to worry about high level balance.

Thank you for the suggestion.

I am going for a much different feel.

Here's a scenario...

A town is being attacked by a Red Dragon. The town's defenders, a mish-mash of mid-level NPC Soldier Class and a handful of high level NPC Soldier Class warriors meet the beast for battle. This fight rages on for a good period of time, resulting in the loss of most of the town guards. Tales of this deed travels far and wide, making the few remaining high level NPC Soldier Classed people heroes in their own right.

Now, as regional heroes, the remaining defenders of the town are looked upon as local legends, which using the "Heroicly Imbued" magical item 'system' I use would cause certain arms and equipment to act as though magically powered. (Which would make the "next" dragon a far easier to defeat foe.)

Same scenario as above, only the town is being visited by the well known heroes of the land, who are roughly the same level as the high level NPC Soldiers that lead the town guards. The Dragon attacks, the Heroes (All Fighter types, no casters for this example) rush out to do battle with the foul dragon and in short order are able to rend the beast limb from limb before lunchtime. They just hit harder, strike more true and their legendary weapons and armor give them an edge over all foes.

It creates a more genuine difference between Uknown Town Guard A, Reknowned Dragon Killing Town Guards and the heroes, who would be more akin to Hercules, in terms of legendary status. Higher level PCs just having more hit dice, higher BtH, while hitting just as hard as before, doesn't quite fit the feel of the game world.
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Earned the following:

50 Useless Trivia Points from Serleran

erc1971 wrote:
D&D 3.5 player in the process of changing over to C&C (every D&D session that is 75% arguing about the rules and 25% playing makes me want to vomit).

I really like the simple, fast rules of C&C, but it is obvious that the non-caster classes are going to hopelessly underpowered at higher levels.

Has anyone come up with something nice and simple that helps alleviate the problem? (I am familiar with "exploding damage" - anytime you roll max on an attack, add another dice. It will help, but it is way too random, looking for something a bit more stable and reliable)

Thanks,

Eric

Eric, the thing you have to keep in mind is that C&C is more like original D&D in that its PLAYER focused not CHARACTER. What that means is that you don't need a rule or feat to state that they have enough pre-requisites to allow this cool new feat which lets them block two hits in a row and strike. Instead what happens is the PLAYER states what combat move they'd like to do and the CK uses the siege engine to determine if its possible. The higher level the character is the better chance of success (unless the enemy is same HD level) which in d20 terms would be the same as fullfilling pre-requisites for special moves or feats.

A C&C player and CK who understands this would kick the crud out of a D20 fighter of the same level with all his feats because usually the d20 person is so book oriented only. That's the problem with D&D 3x, it created a rigid system like a cardgame basically.

I'm gonna have to agree with Robo on that one. I DM'ed my first full fledge C&C game Saturday night and we had a blast! Never mind the fact that we didn't even pay attention to all of the rules since it was a few players' first time playing an RPG period. One guy, playing a bard, decided he wanted to lull two wolves to sleep with a lullaby. Now he didn't have a class ability for that or a Sleep spell per se, but I loved the fact that he thought of it and thought that it would bed something a bard would do. My response: "Sure. Why not?" He failed his roll, but the idea was great and it got him thinking of more than just "swing sword, fire arrow." I play Dungeons and Dragons Online, however, and the 3.5 ruleset works great when a computer is doing all of that math and not me.

Orpheus wrote:
I'm gonna have to agree with Robo on that one. I DM'ed my first full fledge C&C game Saturday night and we had a blast! Never mind the fact that we didn't even pay attention to all of the rules since it was a few players' first time playing an RPG period. One guy, playing a bard, decided he wanted to lull two wolves to sleep with a lullaby. Now he didn't have a class ability for that or a Sleep spell per se, but I loved the fact that he thought of it and thought that it would bed something a bard would do. My response: "Sure. Why not?" He failed his roll, but the idea was great and it got him thinking of more than just "swing sword, fire arrow." I play Dungeons and Dragons Online, however, and the 3.5 ruleset works great when a computer is doing all of that math and not me.

It feels sooooo great to be in a place where everyone thinks like Role-Players.... Cheers!

And as a suggestion. If tis a class abilty one needs to resolve, like the bard and his charming people to sleep, use the seige engine.

But in the case of combat, like trying a 'sweep' maneuver, just use the combat mechanic and assign a progressive penalty to the 'to hit' roll for each additional target.

The combatant would still have to beat each armour class, but in the case of additional targets they would have to beat a penalty as well. Perhaps a -4, -8, -16 and so forth for each additional target?

Tricky, but not impossible at higher levels.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

exactly gideon, the possibilities are endless, it makes it more of a thinking game that way using strategy

Nelzie wrote:
Wanting to keep things simple, I would rather see increased damage from single attacks as they level. Which will allow them to easily rip through hordes of nearly equally powerful, yet un-heroic NPCs and Monsters. Then, when they face Anti-Heroes, they will feel the power that they wield used against themselves, as the Anti-Hero is also similarly "blessed". Which will be bringing even more risk and challenge to fighting their nemesis.

Something else I just thought of, if you want to keep things simple.

I see the adding of extra attacks a bad thing, it makes combat last longer and drags thing's out. You wouldn't give a mage extra spells cast per round would you, they just get better spells. So why give it to warrior types.

If you want it simple and clean, then make the Base-to-Hit bonus, a damage bonus as well. This makes up for escalating hit points, you don't have to deal with more drawn out combat (sure, you can do more damage with all the fancy rules or more attacks, but that still takes time and is harder to keep track of) and it makes sense since these characters will be more skilled with weapons.

It also makes a high strength less of a concern when you have a high-level character with a 10 STR vs. a low-level character with a 18 STR.

If it seems like too much, then add 1/2 the BtH, rounded up.

You can also easily give this to Monsters as well based their attack bonus (1/2 their attack bonus added to damage).