Troll Lord Games

Can someone please tell me how the illusionist spells are supposed to work? Specifically, spells like major image create a creature, object or force. Does that mean it can be used to create a dragon? Explosion? House to sleep in? Just reading the spell indicates I could create a fireball like explosion which would do real damage, or create a monster I have seen with similar abilities to the real one or even a house or ladder to use. This seems very powerful. So, what is the difference between this and say the spell Shadow Evocation? Could not major image be used to create the same spell effects?

In any event this seems to be quite powerful and not really the intent of the original illusionist spells (from 1E). There seems to be no limits set in the spell description so how are they "supposed" to work?

The actual physical effect of spells like Major Illusion varies between CKs. In my games, the spell may be used to recreate the sensory appearance/effect of the image being projected, but there is no actual physical damage. So while a person may believe themselves to be roasted by the fireball, going so far as to see their skin crisped and smoking, observers not under the influence of the illusion would simply see a person screaming and writhing or dropping over dead in their tracks for no apparent reason.

As to creating a house to sleep in...only the "image" of the house is created. So while the caster is awake to continue concentrating as long as the spell endures, the image of the house is there to those believing in it. Should it start raining however, the rain will not be stopped by the illusionary roof and fall on those within.

But as I said, that is how I run such illusions in my games.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

If the character believes something is real, its real to that character. Others might think it odd that the character is attempting to climb something only he can see. Or perhaps the illusion is so pervasive they see the character climbing the ladder.

Yes, an illusionary dragon blasting a character with a flame blast will cause damage just like a real dragon would as long as the character would have no way of realising its just an illusion.

In C&C, just because something is an illusion, does not give a character an automatic chance to know that. Unless the character is an illusionist.

When faced with the illusionary, target creatures need to react just as its the real thing. That, is the awesome power of illusion.
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"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Illusionists in C&C are not exactly like their 1E counterparts. Illusionist magic in C&C is a bit more "tangible" if you will. The 4th printing PHB touches on this a little bit, and the forthcoming CKG will provide plenty of information on the unique nature of illusionist magic.

That being said, major image can be a powerful spell depending on how the CK runs the game. There is a lot of wiggle room in the interpretation for sure.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

Illusions are VERY powerful in the 4th printing. Anything can be created and have all properties of the real thing (if the save is failed). I think a good way to manage this is to not allow a character to deliberately fail the save for illusion spells. Thus, an illusionist can never believe his illusions are real (and thus cannot heal himself, or sleep in a "house" that he created, or climb a "ladder", etc). Party members would have to roll to see if they believe, but if they know the caster is an illusionist, then they would get a bonus to their save roll (maybe +1 per spell observed). This would make it harder and harder for the illusionist to fool his party, and thus effectively limit the power of illusions to affecting foes.

I got the impression too from the book that Illusions are quasi-real. Also it reads that it is real to those who perceive it. Perhaps they are supposed to be similar to holograms from Star Trek, real but not? Perhaps rather then dying from hit point damage though the victim would have to make some sort of saving throw, like the 1E system shock rolls.

Can the illusionist use the spell to put a false image over someone else? Could for example he make a member of the party look like a large monster and trick them into attacking it? 3E has many rules for illusions which quantify them but this game basically seems that anything goes in that regard.

If the party or fellows of the person targeted by the image fail their saving throw, then yes, they would perceive the "monster"...though unless the illusion also had the creature in threat mode, it is possible that they might not attack (slim chance in some cases...but possible) and depending on the monster projected, might actually flee instead.

The quasi-real issue is part of the non-consensus in how illusions are applied. Again, in my games, say a victim was to believe there was a ladder in front of him to escape pursuit. They would see the ladder, feel the ladder, and begin climbing the ladder. However the reality is that the victim is merely going through the motions of climbing while standing in place...there is no actual tangible ladder and they go nowhere giving the pursuers plenty of time to catch them up.

If you'd want to apply a system shock roll to avert actual death from an illusion as opposed to a comatose condition...nothing wrong with doing that. How you run things is your choice which C&C very much facilitates.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

The spell Illusionary Help seems to indicate the effects are real. For example, if the caster is in a pit then an illusion of a man holding a rope will appear. Now, we must assume the caster knows his magic is not real. So, we must assume then that this example illustrates that even though it is not real it can have tangible effects. If the rope could not be used to get out of the pit then what use is it? So, from this example we must infur that the magic creates something that is both unreal and real at the same time. The same would apply to healing spells. Since they work they must be real, although if you dont believe them they cease to function. So, the illusionist could use the rope but not disbelievers.

This type of situation is similar movies with magic, Santa Claus and fairy tales. If you believe in the magic then it is real. Those who do not believe cannot perceive this level of reality. Magic changes reality but only for those who believe in it. Whether this is good or not depends on the situation.

For example believing can both help and hinder at the same time. If you create an illusionary house then the people inside are indeed safe and dry. Those outside the house who disbelieve would see the people doing strange things (eg. someone in bed might appear to be laying on the ground). However if it is raining the people who believed in the magic would be dry while those who did not believe would be wet. However they would see the people who believed in the magic as being wet themselves since this is what "should" be happening.

IN regards to damage, people die from shock all the time. If fell into a burning pit and it "felt" real what would happen to your body? It would probably go into shock and you would have a) heart attack or b) hyperventilate and die. Similar to the scene in the movie Dune when buddy's hand is being burned in the box. Some car accident victims die from shock rather then actual physical harm.

The question is can the party benefit from this magic knowing that it is? Do they know an illusionist's magic is fake? Can they benefit from illusionary creations or do they have to make automatic saves? My gut says no since "magic" is not something which is widely known and the difference to most people (magic user vs illusionist vs. clerical) is indistinguishable. Its just "magic". Now if he were to teach members of the party otherwise then perhaps saves would be required.

As I said...it's one of those things that differs in interpretation. With illusionary help, I'd rule that it was a figure made of shadows with a rope of the same night black substance....more shadow magic than actual illusion.

For illusion I use the Webster's Dictionary definition:

a obsolete : the action of deceiving b (1) : the state or fact of being intellectually deceived or misled : misapprehension (2) : an instance of such deception

2a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature (2) : hallucination 1 (3) : a pattern capable of reversible perspective

Still...as I said, the great thing about C&C is that you get to choose how you adjudicate such things without foul.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Go0gleplex wrote:
As I said...it's one of those things that differs in interpretation.

Well, of course you can play how you wish. But it's not really a matter of interpretation--the rules as written are clear:

PHB, 4th printing, p. 50 wrote:
"Thus, it could be argued that illusionist magic is the most powerful of all magics as it can allow those affected by it to defy nature and its physical laws, even beyond those that exist in a fantasy universe."

So the characters who fail their save do not just think they are climbing a rope, they actually are climbing it (according to the RAW).

I much prefer a very different mechanism of illusion (very similar to yours, Go0gleplex), but the OP asked how illusions are "supposed" to work.

Yep, Illusions have always been hard for people to wrap their minds around. I also agree with the above quoted statement, Illusions are potentially the most powerful magic around. Unless you have specific defenses against it, then it is pretty much useless. Like the spell True Seeing, you have that going and the Illusionist becomes essentially worthless as a class. Fortunately for the Illusionist such spells aren't readily available, let alone in use when they cast their spells.

Even so I strongly suggest imposing some practical limitations. For example, they cannot cast an illusion of anything they have not seen in an actual combat situation. This is because an Illusionist MUST convey a very realistic look, feel, smell and sound of the creature. So if they haven't seen it in action, they cannot do a very convincing illusion of it. To reflect this I do not allow the caster level to be added to the targets save, it is either a raw 12 or 18.

So my Illusionist players keep a very detailed accounting of what they see throughout their adventures.

Another limitation I put on them is they can NEVER portray a monster at a HD greater than their own caster level. My main justification for this is I am not ever going to allow a 5th level Illusionist to cast a 20 HD red dragon illusion coming in and destroying the town, ship, whatever. Plus I just consider it an inherent part of the power limitations of Illusions. Meaning a certain amount of quasi real energy must be put into such illusions, and they simply cannot do such a thing for creatures higher than their HD. Not exactly perfect for the idea, but it is the best way I could think of to reflect it in the game mechanics.

Plus Undead are nearly universally immune to most illusionary powers. Shadow plane based magics being the most likely obvious exceptions.

So yes, the Illusionist is very difficult to adjudicate, especially if you have a very thoughtful player who tries their best to find out just where the boundaries of their power lies.

My ultimate solution for when I have a problem with a player who won't work with me in trying to keep the class balanced and not overly God like is a have a Vampiric Illusionist hit squad that takes such characters as their vampiric spawn slave for the rest of eternity. Which is the "real" reason Illusionists are so rare in my campaigns.

Of course that has made me create a very interesting, and very terrifying, band of demi and shadow plane spell casting vampire Illusionists.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

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That reminds me Tree....back in the days of 1e illusions, our DM made the same ruling about what had been seen or experienced...so we all started keeping running lists of what creatures we'd seen, spells experienced and witnessed, etc....so we would be able to cast such things...or say, "well, not knowing what that would look like..."

Talk about encouraging note taking.
Dun...yeah...but I just have a major issue with the BtB RAW.
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The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

Treebore wrote:
So yes, the Illusionist is very difficult to adjudicate, especially if you have a very thoughtful player who tries their best to find out just where the boundaries of their power lies.

So true. One reason I love the C&C version of the illusionist over the 3.X editions is that illusionist magic is different, and powerful. Of course, with a player who reads between the lines, or is just very inventive, illusions can beceome diffifult to CK. There are some good suggestions above, but since this is such a broad topic, you're not going to be able to cover every situation with rules.

~O
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> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

My rule of thumb is that you can use an illusion for anything you like, but that the person gets a saving throw against the illusion. So, you can Phantasmal Force a Magic Missile, but they'd get a saving throw to realize it's illusionary. Against a lightning bolt, they'd get two... one against the illusion, and one to get out of the way of the bolt of lightning.

Go0gleplex wrote:
Dun...yeah...but I just have a major issue with the BtB RAW.

Me too. It's really the only thing I dislike about an otherwise all-around cool game.