Troll Lord Games

Okay, this is an edited copypasta of something I posted over at Palladium and Knights & Knaves Alehouse.

I read an eye-opening piece over at the Knights & Knaves Alehouse board about resetting OD&D using the Chainmail rules of 2d6 for 'to hit' instead of d20. Apparently, at some point in the history of D&D, the resolution mechanic wasn't d20, but 2d6 (from what I have gathered, this may have been how it was in Dave Arneson's Blackmoor/First Fantasy Campaign which predates D&D). Despite the screams I can hear now, I think this idea has some merit. It infinitely reduces the complexity of the game. To whit, I think some of the mechanics from OD&D deserve looking at again. For example, in my own games:

All Hit Dice are based on d6:

Fighter Types (Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Berskers, Brawlers etc) get d6+2 - 6 (depending upon exact class).

Holy Men (Clerics, Druids, Crusaders, Shamans etc) get d6+2

Rogues (Thieves, Assassins, Jesters, Gypsies etc) get d6

Magic-Users (Wizards, Warlocks, Witches, Necromancers, Illusionists etc) get d6-1 to a minimum of 1

Aliens (Psionicists, Scientists, Cyborgs) and High Elves get d6+1 since they are 'race-classes'.

All weapon damages are based on d6 as the most basic weapon in the game, the Scramseax (Longknife) does d6. A semispatha does d6+2 while a spatha and/or battle axe does d6+4. An arrow does d6+1 while a thrust with a spear does d6+4.

Task Resolution/SEIGE Mechanic would be: 2d6+Attribute Bonus (if any)+Class and Race Bonus (if any)+Lvl vs. Target Number.

One of the few modern d20-style conveniences I adopt is the 11-20 AC scale (as opposed to the older 10 - 1). THAC0 in this instance means 'To Hit AC 20', since its a useful acronym. The only problem will be what bonuses for 'to hit' to add to the game since there is a difference between 2d6 and d20 for hitting. Given that I don't use Armour Class in the traditional sense, I had to think about this and re-jigger the numbers. For me, Armour is Damage Reduction. Like in d20, Heavier Armour is useful, but you don't get your Dex Bonus after a certain point. It has to be a trade-off.

Fighter Types: +1 to hit lvls 1-4, +2 to hit lvls 5-8, +3 to hit lvls 9-12 and +4 to hit lvls 13 and up.

Holy Men: +1 to hit lvls 1-5, +2 to hit lvls 6-10, +3 to hit lvls 11 and up

Rogues: +1 to hit lvls 1-6, +2 to hit lvls 7-12, +3 to hit lvls 13 and up

Magic-Users: +1 to hit lvls 1-8, +2 to hit lvls 9 and up

Since I don't use Exceptional Strength, a regular 18 is equivalent to 18/00: +3 to hit, +6 to damage. Natural 12s hit every time, no matter the AC. Given that a fighter could ultimately have as much as 2d6+17 (off the top of my head) its likely that ACs will have to go up to 30.

Initiative would probably require a 'traditional' AD&D type approach: roll 2d6-DEX Bonus+weapon speed and/or spell casting time (might have to use the old AD&D casting time rules). Whomever rolls lowest goes first, and so on.

Ex. - Hookah the High Elf (Fighter/Wizard) w/18 DEX casts Magic Missile. Rolls 2d6 = 5-3(DEX Bonus)=2+Casting Time of 1= 3.

So, we have Mr. 1st lvl Fighter Joe Schmoe the Hapless, who has an 18 STR. That means he's rolls 2d6+4 to hit. To take on an 'average' bad guy of AC 13 (no or low DEX bonus, Large Shield which is +2 AC vs melee & missile) Joe would need to roll at least a 9 on 2d6. Not an easy feat. All of a sudden, that +1 Sword is going to come in REAL handy whereas with a standard d20 roll a +1 sword is nice, but not a big deal. Naturally, this will make Missileer types (javelin hurlers or archers) a lot more credible as threats. An Archer with an 18 DEX is a threat, especially against mail-clad warriors as piercing weapons are the bane of ring-type armours.

Now, this is all just back of the envelope scribbling and I'm totally playing off what Steven Long did for Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG. However, it would appear that this system was in use early in the days of our hobby since it evolved from tabletop wargaming like Napoleonic Minis. I like the idea of only having to bring one die-type to a game for resolving all actions (combat, damage, initiative, SEIGE Checks etc).

Of course, YMMV, but I think its an interesting and neat concept.
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

I like your idea in concept, although I'll need some time to process it fully.

Yes, OD&D from 1974 was based on Chainmail, and Chainmail used a 2d6 dice mechanic for combat. (Actually, there are several combat systems. The mass combat system was 1d6, the man-to-man combat 2d6, and the "fantastic" combat also 2d6. OD&D presented an "alternate" combat with d20, but it was basically assumed to be the usual one since many OD&D players didn't have Chainmail and the Chainmail system isn't explained in the OD&D rulebooks.)

It's my personal theory that AC represents the number or lower needed to hit, so AC9 (none) would be hit on a 2-9 while AC2 (plate+shield) would only be hit on a 2. This isn't as obvious when using an ascending AC scale, but a simple chart could translate from one to another. Also, my players like the "high is better" model, so it makes sense to redo the AC scale to look like this so you can "tie or beat" to hit:

Old / description / New

9 / none / 5

8 / leather / 6

7 / shield / 7

6 / leather+shield / 8

5 / chain / 9

4 / chain+shield / 10

3 / plate / 11

2 / plate+shield / 12

Of course, that doesn't leave much room to go up if a person throws in magic armor, but perhaps attack adjustments and magic weapon adjustments take care of this issue.

From there, most dice can be approximated with d6's. This gives the correct average, but not the same range. (For example, a d6-1 actually gives a range of 0-5 instead of 1-4. That matters to some folks, doesn't matter to others.)

d4 = d6-1

d6 = d6

d8 = d6+1

d10 = d6+2

d12 = d6+3

Overall, there's no reason why C&C can't be adjusted to use all d6's. I kind of like an all-d6 game but many of my players object to not getting to use their cool shaped dice instead.[/list]
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Finarvyn

Lord Marshall, Earl of Stone Creek, C&C Society

C&C Playtester in 2003
OD&D player since 1975

Keolander, i think this is a great idea. I also had know idea of the decipher lotr doing this. keep us posted on your work.

Isn't this the basic mechanic in GURPS, or was it 3d6? I only played it a couple of times, and never got far enough into it to remember much. Oh yeah...and I'm too damn lazy to run down the basement and dig out the game book.

I just considered something as a revision of Initiative. Instead of lowest going first, why not like standard d20 with highest goes first? Casting Time/Weapon Speed would be subtracted. To whit:

Roll 2d6 + DEX Bonus (if any) + Class/Race Bonus (if any) - Weapon Speed/Casting Time

So, Hookah the High Elf (DEX 18) casts Magic Missile: 2d6 = 5+4-1 = 8

This way its the same as all other dice rolls: the higher the better.
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

While I enjoy the concept of reductionist design, I would not play this. 2d6 is simply not random enough to be enjoyable to me, and cuts down far too much on the available options possible with a larger, and more minute, scheme like using d% or even a d20.
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If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

If I were going to do this, I'd have 3d6 as a base, like Gurps. It's still a bell curve, and the numbers are close to the same (though the probabilities are different).

I've been leafing through the American Gothic game of late, and I'm intrigued by the 2d12 system that they use. While they provide lots of good extras to go with the book in terms of the history, I'd want to bone up on it some more before I ran a game of it. The 2d12 mechanic is definitely interesting, though.

I wasnt lying.... I *DO* like pie....

Breakdaddy wrote:
I wasnt lying.... I *DO* like pie....

TMI, dude. TMI. (Coincidentally, so do I.)

I voted YAY . . it is an interesting concept to a degree. But I'm thinking I would just run O/B D&D if I were wanting to run a simpler game.
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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

Rhuvein wrote:
I voted YAY . . it is an interesting concept to a degree. But I'm thinking I would just run O/B D&D if I were wanting to run a simpler game.

Heh, smart aleck.
Anyway, if people are concerned about the lack of being able to hit (as NovaStar over at Palladium noted) perhaps a slight increase in the 'to hit' for each is necessary?

Fighting Men: +1 to hit lvls 1-3, +2 to hit lvls 4-6, +3 to hit lvls 7-9, +4 to hit lvls 10-13, +5 to hit lvls 14 and up

Holy Men: +1 to hit lvls 1-4, +2 to hit lvl 5-8, +3 to hit lvls 9-12, +4 to hit lvls 13 and up

Rogues: +1 to hit lvls 1-5, +2 to hit lvls 6-10, +3 to hit lvls 11 and up

Magic-Users: +1 to hit lvls 1-6, +2 to hit lvls 7 and up

This gives a definite improvement to Fighting Men and Holy Men (an additional +1 to hit over all) and a slight improvement for Rogues and Magic-Users.

Edit: Forgot to stress the fact that in my system, since Armour is ablation, most enemies will only have around a 13 or 14 AC (+1 Dex, Shield & Spear) for melee, it shouldn't be as awful as people fear. The benefit of +1 Mail, in this case, would be it reduces the Dex Penalty by 1, instead of providing additional AC, and increases the Ablation by 1. It would be rare indeed for a player to have, say, a 17 AC for melee (18 Dex, Large Shield, Spear). Armor keeps you alive against certain types of weapons, but makes you less nimble.

It also makes the Fighter better for those that ported over the Pathfinder Armour Specialization rules for Fighters.
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

Hey I don't normally vote in these polls as its, well I don't know.

It don't not seem right!

But as a long time friend of Todd Gray (the Gray in Chenault and Gray) I have to vote for him "leave my dice alone you heretic" because Todd is insane when it comes to his dice. Its not that he's a freak with the dice mojo, heck you could slather yourself in butter and roll around in his dice and he would only look askance at you, but he loves to roll dice. He really puts his all into it. Taking away his 20 sider would earn me a bruising for sure. Davis tried to move the character damage rolls behind the screen once and it went over pretty poorly.

Great post though!

Steve
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The High Lord, Coburg the Undying

He who sits on the elephants back

Castle and Crusade Society
troll@trolllord.com

Troll Lord wrote:
Great post though!

Hehe, thanks. Like I said, it totally blew me away when I read that this had been considered at one time for OD&D. I'm one of those weirdos that have basically taken things from all 6 editions of D&D (OD&D, 1E, 2.x, 3.x, 4E, Pathfinder, Hackmaster) and used them for Castles & Crusades. Its sort of like a jigsaw puzzle in that regards and it speaks volumes to what y'all have done to make a game that is so easy adaptable to what a CK needs!
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Lord Lamorek Steelguard, Baron of Calx Mons Montis - The Castles & Crusades Society

Keolander wrote:
Heh, smart aleck.

Sorry, didn't mean to be.

It's probably me and my gut reaction . . your proposal seems to be an overly complex attempt to use/mix & match/blend the earlier system and rule mechanics and drop them into C&C thereby replacing the heart of that RPG system.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but to me - each of those editions has it's excellently simple way to run a game and the attempt to bring one into another along with Chainmail complexities that don't always fit RPGs (as opposed to wargaming scenarios) appear to be more complicated and more work for the CK.

Again, just my opinion from a less than experienced DM/CK . . and as Finn mentions, I'm still processing!

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Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

I, too, voted yay [sic].

I've read through Jason Vey's stuff RE: using Chainmail's combat systems in lieu of the traditional d20 (aka "Alternative") system, and I like it. I like it A LOT.

I'd elaborate but I have a toothache and it's time to put my kid to bed.