Actually, I'm not even a newb yet. I'm just considering buying the two C&C core books, based on the reviews I've read. Like a lot of DM... erm, ahem, 'scuse me, I meant CKs... I've been looking for a way to streamline the paperwork and preparation time of my games. What I've read about C&C intrigues me, but I do have some questions that I didn't see answered in any reviews or on these boards (though I may have missed something). The answers won't necessarily sway my decision to buy, I'm just curious.
Does the game retain clerical domain spells?
How does it handle multi-classing?
What works better -- prestige classes or converted "kits" from 2nd Ed.?
Which editions of D&D are most easily converted (I'm willing to do them all, if necessary, but I'd still like to know)?
How difficult is it to create new or customized races and classes?
Finally, is it true that combat and prep time really are streamlined with this system, in your experience? The perspective of either players or CKs is welcome.
Thanks to everyone, and sorry if these questions have already been asked a gazillion times.
Questions from the noob
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gideon_thorne
- Maukling
- Posts: 6176
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:00 am
- Contact:
Re: Questions from the noob
artemis wands wrote:
Does the game retain clerical domain spells?
Not specifically. But it wont harm the C&C core system to add them in.
Quote:
How does it handle multi-classing?
Due to a wide level of contention on this topic, MC was left out of the first two books. Gary Gygax put a system in his Yggsburgh book, that section which is available for free download on the main site, however. There are so many ideas on ways to implement it, it was felt better to leave it in the hands of the various game groups. AD&D's system works fine for it
Quote:
What works better -- prestige classes or converted "kits" from 2nd Ed.?
Either can work. Its just as simple to make them into new classes. IMHO. Others will certainly chime in with their own creative methodologies.
Quote:
Which editions of D&D are most easily converted (I'm willing to do them all, if necessary, but I'd still like to know)?
The pre 3rd editions are easier and have less numbers to flip. But, depending on how complex one wishes to get 3rd ed can range from easy to time consuming. Its all in the details.
Quote:
How difficult is it to create new or customized races and classes?
Not any more difficult than it is to think them up, in my estimation. Several people have done a fair number of such classes, of varying utility and popularity. There is a C&C useful links thread above that covers this in detail.
Quote:
Finally, is it true that combat and prep time really are streamlined with this system, in your experience? The perspective of either players or CKs is welcome.
In my experience, yes. Combats can be done away with in minutes instead of hours. Its more fly by the seat of your pants, than codified systems, but folks seem to appreciate that aspect.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven
Peter Bradley
"The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout, 'Save us!' And I'll look down, and whisper 'No.' " ~Rorschach
What Gideon said.
Definitely look at the thread by seleren with useful web links, especially (IMO) www.cncplayer.net
Definitely look at the thread by seleren with useful web links, especially (IMO) www.cncplayer.net
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
What Gideon and Treebore said...adding only that the best way to get a feel for C&C is to try it out for yourself. I did and stuck with it from then on.
If you're looking to add more complexity, you can always home rule to suit your needs.
Brian Miller
_________________
"The adventure continues"
If you're looking to add more complexity, you can always home rule to suit your needs.
Brian Miller
_________________
"The adventure continues"
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.
Re: Questions from the noob
artemis wands wrote:
Finally, is it true that combat and prep time really are streamlined with this system, in your experience? The perspective of either players or CKs is welcome.
Welcome artemis wands! Just to add on to what Gideon said about combat speed being streamlined, the game preparation and learning curve is quick and fun. Char gen is a breeze. Really, it's read, roll and roleplay. I think you'll be quite pleased with the books and the game.
Enjoy.
_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
Re: Questions from the noob
Well, i got the book last friday and haven't even read the whole thing yet, but we have started a small agme, a friend is DMing. Basically the game itself is closer to older editions than 3.X, in all aspects, but then it does not mean 3.X is useless, rather that feats will become uses for the Siege Engine (attempt what? Well, that is a DC X, roll, add your level and modifiers and see if it beats up) adn skills are somewhat another of the use of the siege engine.
Clerical domains wouldn't hurt the game one bit, really, but theya re not really needed because the cleric's thing is not anyone's else already. Multi classing is not handled in the books, but there is the Crusader magazine with two different takes, basically a gestalt style and another is to make a class to suit your needs, aside from that gideon spoke of Gygax's system, which mimics AD&D 2nd edition system and there are many others around, including 3.X style multiclass.
Both kits and prestige classes can work well, kits my become new classes pretty easily while prestige classes can be the same, though if you like the becomning X thing, then you are back into prestige classes and the older concept: Name Level. This would work as a new class taken at higher level and changing your direction, while this would work greatly I have been tinkering with the idea of making them either requiring a certain class and level or multiclass selection and level, much like an old edition fighter could become a knight at later levels.
It all comes down to how you would like the concepts to work within youyr game, as said.
Making new classes and races is damn easy, really, the only troublesome thing might be purely spellcasting classes, but that is basically because of the spells and the spell lsit and not really for the class itself.
We played 3 sessions so far and I msut say we have had about 3 or 4 combats a session, some taking less than 20 minutes, none going for more than 40. Making a character is a damn easy and fast thing, we took 20 minutes for that, and we were 3 players making characters at the same time, with two books, for the DM/Ck it is rather simple to run, there are no overcomplicated monster abilities and all tests are really attribute checks, meanign you won't ahev to re-read pages and pages every time something will be used in a game.
Sure the system is not perfect, but we can easily change whatever we want, mainly because we can easily grasp what effects the change have. For the me DMing 3.X became a torture, C&C seems like a walk through a park, you will enjoy it and when you are over you won't even know what was not so good about it.
Hope it helps somehow.
Cheers,
Nif.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Clerical domains wouldn't hurt the game one bit, really, but theya re not really needed because the cleric's thing is not anyone's else already. Multi classing is not handled in the books, but there is the Crusader magazine with two different takes, basically a gestalt style and another is to make a class to suit your needs, aside from that gideon spoke of Gygax's system, which mimics AD&D 2nd edition system and there are many others around, including 3.X style multiclass.
Both kits and prestige classes can work well, kits my become new classes pretty easily while prestige classes can be the same, though if you like the becomning X thing, then you are back into prestige classes and the older concept: Name Level. This would work as a new class taken at higher level and changing your direction, while this would work greatly I have been tinkering with the idea of making them either requiring a certain class and level or multiclass selection and level, much like an old edition fighter could become a knight at later levels.
It all comes down to how you would like the concepts to work within youyr game, as said.
Making new classes and races is damn easy, really, the only troublesome thing might be purely spellcasting classes, but that is basically because of the spells and the spell lsit and not really for the class itself.
We played 3 sessions so far and I msut say we have had about 3 or 4 combats a session, some taking less than 20 minutes, none going for more than 40. Making a character is a damn easy and fast thing, we took 20 minutes for that, and we were 3 players making characters at the same time, with two books, for the DM/Ck it is rather simple to run, there are no overcomplicated monster abilities and all tests are really attribute checks, meanign you won't ahev to re-read pages and pages every time something will be used in a game.
Sure the system is not perfect, but we can easily change whatever we want, mainly because we can easily grasp what effects the change have. For the me DMing 3.X became a torture, C&C seems like a walk through a park, you will enjoy it and when you are over you won't even know what was not so good about it.
Hope it helps somehow.
Cheers,
Nif.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
I think I should clean up and tighten up your post a bit, and if you still like it add it to our "Why Play C&C" document that is on the Trolls website.
Especially since your a player and everyones input was from a CK.
Especially since your a player and everyones input was from a CK.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
I will be more than okay with that, that is a thing, specially because alongside with the gift book for my friend I made a small booklet where the "Why Play Castles and Crusades" got a place.
You can send the trimmed down version either by Pm or mail, anytime.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
You can send the trimmed down version either by Pm or mail, anytime.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
-
Omote
- Battle Stag
- Posts: 11560
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- Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
- Contact:
There's a thread around here somewhere describing combat between v3.5 and C&C. Well, not so much as a discussion as me stating that I can't believe it takes me 5 hours to fight a v3.5 combat that might take less then 1 hour in C&C.
As a player of both games, I have come to love C&C for the fact that there can be more accomplished within a session, mechanically speaking (and IMO), then in the v3.5 conterpart.
Hail, and we look forward to seeing you within the ranks of the Crusaders, Artemis Wands. Go in peace.
.........................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
As a player of both games, I have come to love C&C for the fact that there can be more accomplished within a session, mechanically speaking (and IMO), then in the v3.5 conterpart.
Hail, and we look forward to seeing you within the ranks of the Crusaders, Artemis Wands. Go in peace.
.........................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
Alright, here is my edited version so you can easily do a direct comparison to see what I changed:
Basically the game itself is closer to older editions than 3.X, in all aspects, but then it does not mean 3.X is useless, feats will become used for the Siege Engine (attempt what? Well, that is a DC X, roll, add your level and modifiers and see if it beats up) and skills are useable with the siege engine.
Clerical domains wouldn't hurt the game one bit, but aren't needed because the cleric's thing is not anyone's elses. Multi classing is not handled in the books, but there is the Crusader magazine with two different takes, basically a gestalt style and another is to make a class to suit your needs, ... of Gygax's system, which mimics AD&D 2nd edition system and there are many others around, including 3.X style multiclass.
Both kits and prestige classes work well, kits become new classes pretty easily while prestige classes can be the same. PrC's would work as a new class taken at higher level and changing your direction, while this would work well...
It all comes down to how you would like the concepts to work within youyr game, as said.
Making new classes and races is real easy, the only troublesome thing might be purely spellcasting classes, but that is basically because of the spells and the spell list and not really for the class itself.
We have played 3 sessions, we have had about 3 or 4 combats a session, some taking less than 20 minutes, none going for more than 40. Making a character is extremely easy and fast thing, we took 20 minutes. For the DM/Ck it is rather simple to run, there are no overcomplicated monster abilities and all tests are really attribute checks, so you won't have to re-read pages and pages every time something new comes up.
Sure the system is not perfect, but we can easily change whatever we want, mainly because we can easily grasp what effects the change have. For the me DMing 3.X became a torture, C&C seems like a walk through a park, you will enjoy it and when you are over you won't even know what was not so good about it.
Nif
If this is OK I'll submit it to be added.
Basically the game itself is closer to older editions than 3.X, in all aspects, but then it does not mean 3.X is useless, feats will become used for the Siege Engine (attempt what? Well, that is a DC X, roll, add your level and modifiers and see if it beats up) and skills are useable with the siege engine.
Clerical domains wouldn't hurt the game one bit, but aren't needed because the cleric's thing is not anyone's elses. Multi classing is not handled in the books, but there is the Crusader magazine with two different takes, basically a gestalt style and another is to make a class to suit your needs, ... of Gygax's system, which mimics AD&D 2nd edition system and there are many others around, including 3.X style multiclass.
Both kits and prestige classes work well, kits become new classes pretty easily while prestige classes can be the same. PrC's would work as a new class taken at higher level and changing your direction, while this would work well...
It all comes down to how you would like the concepts to work within youyr game, as said.
Making new classes and races is real easy, the only troublesome thing might be purely spellcasting classes, but that is basically because of the spells and the spell list and not really for the class itself.
We have played 3 sessions, we have had about 3 or 4 combats a session, some taking less than 20 minutes, none going for more than 40. Making a character is extremely easy and fast thing, we took 20 minutes. For the DM/Ck it is rather simple to run, there are no overcomplicated monster abilities and all tests are really attribute checks, so you won't have to re-read pages and pages every time something new comes up.
Sure the system is not perfect, but we can easily change whatever we want, mainly because we can easily grasp what effects the change have. For the me DMing 3.X became a torture, C&C seems like a walk through a park, you will enjoy it and when you are over you won't even know what was not so good about it.
Nif
If this is OK I'll submit it to be added.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
-
artemis wands
- Ungern
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:00 am
Thank you...
Thanks, everyone, for your insightful responses.
I just finished reading the 'Why Play C&C?" page, and I think I'm just about converted. Most likely, I'll be ordering the PHB and MT this weekend.
I'm usually the DM (for a group that converted from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3.5), and I've grown increasingly wary of 3.x campaigns because of all the planning involved. While I love 3.5 from a player's perspective, I'm loathe to DM it any more; it is meant to be a hobby, not a second job, if you know what I mean. Players are supposed to kill kobolds with swords, not calculators.
We've been missing the feel of the old days, while hoping to keep the cool stuff about the new ones. It looks like C&C will be the answer to our dilemma.
And it's nice to see Mr. Gygax back in action.
I just finished reading the 'Why Play C&C?" page, and I think I'm just about converted. Most likely, I'll be ordering the PHB and MT this weekend.
I'm usually the DM (for a group that converted from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3.5), and I've grown increasingly wary of 3.x campaigns because of all the planning involved. While I love 3.5 from a player's perspective, I'm loathe to DM it any more; it is meant to be a hobby, not a second job, if you know what I mean. Players are supposed to kill kobolds with swords, not calculators.
We've been missing the feel of the old days, while hoping to keep the cool stuff about the new ones. It looks like C&C will be the answer to our dilemma.
And it's nice to see Mr. Gygax back in action.
-
moriarty777
- Renegade Mage
- Posts: 3735
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Although all questions has been answered wonderfully, here's my two coppers for what it's worth with a few of the things you've asked.
From a CK's perspective, yes... with the streamlining of the game, doing your prep work for the next session is drastically quicker and easier. I found that with some of this extra time, I add even MORE into my planning for the session ahead which usually carries over for the one after that.
From a Player's perspective, having finally had a chance to play instead of CK, I'm amazed at how fast the game goes on the opposite side of the table. I just *love* it.
I find that pre-3.x material is easier to convert... Most of the conversion work involves flipping the AC and THAC0 around. I find this material is a bit closer to the 'power-scale' better suited to C&C. However, 3.x is just as easy to convert. Both can be done 'on the fly'
I'm moonlighting using some of the kits personally but either or can be used and creating races or classes is no harder than any other version of the game. The question is balance. But that too will come and be addressed in an upcoming C&C product. Better guidelines to create new classes and determine their EPP.
Finally, on the subject of Muliclassing, I find it to be a bit of a mess but with great support from this community, articles in that issue of the Crusader (issue number 4), and looking at AD&D 1E and 2E as well as Gygax's offering in the Yggsburgh book, I pieced something together that I'm happy with.
The greatest support to this game I find is this community. Use it to your advantage and visit often!
Welcome to the Crusade!
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
From a CK's perspective, yes... with the streamlining of the game, doing your prep work for the next session is drastically quicker and easier. I found that with some of this extra time, I add even MORE into my planning for the session ahead which usually carries over for the one after that.
From a Player's perspective, having finally had a chance to play instead of CK, I'm amazed at how fast the game goes on the opposite side of the table. I just *love* it.
I find that pre-3.x material is easier to convert... Most of the conversion work involves flipping the AC and THAC0 around. I find this material is a bit closer to the 'power-scale' better suited to C&C. However, 3.x is just as easy to convert. Both can be done 'on the fly'
I'm moonlighting using some of the kits personally but either or can be used and creating races or classes is no harder than any other version of the game. The question is balance. But that too will come and be addressed in an upcoming C&C product. Better guidelines to create new classes and determine their EPP.
Finally, on the subject of Muliclassing, I find it to be a bit of a mess but with great support from this community, articles in that issue of the Crusader (issue number 4), and looking at AD&D 1E and 2E as well as Gygax's offering in the Yggsburgh book, I pieced something together that I'm happy with.
The greatest support to this game I find is this community. Use it to your advantage and visit often!
Welcome to the Crusade!
Moriarty the Red
_________________
"You face Death itself in the form of... 1d4 Tarrasques!"
Partner to Brave Halfling Publishing
http://www.arcanacreations.com
Re: Questions from the noob
Welcome to the Crusade! See, we're so friendly you've become a member just because you're thinking about starting!
No. As with anything it doesn't hurt to add them and it wouldn't be difficult either. If the reason for adding them is to create unique spells for different priests, there was a house rule I adopted - 'signature spells' (written by someone else, apologies for not remembering who). Essentially, each mythoi got one spell of each level that was their signature. They could cast this spontaneously a la 3e.
By ignoring it completely. There are no multi-classing rules in C&C. This doesn't mean you can't adopt any mechanism you like. I've seen good mechanisms similar to 1e, 2e and 3e. Having said that, none of my players have missed it and none of them have expressed a preference for playing one.
My opinion is that kits would work best. Prestige classes would be okay too, but I never really understood the reasoning behind them.
I don't actually convert anything, just use it as is. Apart from flipping ACs around (AC 4 is AC 16 for example), I don't feel the need to change anything else, from any edition. I'm CKing Temple of Elemental Evil at the moment and have just used the stats in the book as printed. You can convert of course, I just don't see the need.
Designing? Easy. Getting the balance right? Difficult. It's important to note that there are only four spell casters in C&C. The Cleric and Druid (Divine) and the Wizard and Illusionist (Arcane). The feel of the game is that magic is too complex to be done 'part time' and I actually enjoy that. It can easily be changed though, and a number of variants on the bard, ranger and paladin with their spell casting abilities have been posted around here.
YES! Yes! And thrice times - yes! I'm a CK (and a DM of some 25 years) and have never had a problem with prep time until 3e came along. Over the years I noticed I was spending more and more time just setting up simple encounters. When the encounters were played out they took ages to complete as well! I have a family and a social life and resented this intrusion. In C&C one combat between a party of 6 and 20 guards took about 30 minutes! It is now the norm for an evening's play to consist of a number of encounters rather than the one it used to have. More importantly, these encounters can be 'winged'.
I cannot recommend C&C highly enough. It has let me continue to play (and CK) the game I love and have loved for decades.
_________________
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin
artemis wands wrote:
Does the game retain clerical domain spells?
No. As with anything it doesn't hurt to add them and it wouldn't be difficult either. If the reason for adding them is to create unique spells for different priests, there was a house rule I adopted - 'signature spells' (written by someone else, apologies for not remembering who). Essentially, each mythoi got one spell of each level that was their signature. They could cast this spontaneously a la 3e.
artemis wands wrote:
How does it handle multi-classing?
By ignoring it completely. There are no multi-classing rules in C&C. This doesn't mean you can't adopt any mechanism you like. I've seen good mechanisms similar to 1e, 2e and 3e. Having said that, none of my players have missed it and none of them have expressed a preference for playing one.
artemis wands wrote:
What works better -- prestige classes or converted "kits" from 2nd Ed.?
My opinion is that kits would work best. Prestige classes would be okay too, but I never really understood the reasoning behind them.
artemis wands wrote:
Which editions of D&D are most easily converted (I'm willing to do them all, if necessary, but I'd still like to know)?
I don't actually convert anything, just use it as is. Apart from flipping ACs around (AC 4 is AC 16 for example), I don't feel the need to change anything else, from any edition. I'm CKing Temple of Elemental Evil at the moment and have just used the stats in the book as printed. You can convert of course, I just don't see the need.
artemis wands wrote:
How difficult is it to create new or customized races and classes?
Designing? Easy. Getting the balance right? Difficult. It's important to note that there are only four spell casters in C&C. The Cleric and Druid (Divine) and the Wizard and Illusionist (Arcane). The feel of the game is that magic is too complex to be done 'part time' and I actually enjoy that. It can easily be changed though, and a number of variants on the bard, ranger and paladin with their spell casting abilities have been posted around here.
artemis wands wrote:
Finally, is it true that combat and prep time really are streamlined with this system, in your experience? The perspective of either players or CKs is welcome.
YES! Yes! And thrice times - yes! I'm a CK (and a DM of some 25 years) and have never had a problem with prep time until 3e came along. Over the years I noticed I was spending more and more time just setting up simple encounters. When the encounters were played out they took ages to complete as well! I have a family and a social life and resented this intrusion. In C&C one combat between a party of 6 and 20 guards took about 30 minutes! It is now the norm for an evening's play to consist of a number of encounters rather than the one it used to have. More importantly, these encounters can be 'winged'.
I cannot recommend C&C highly enough. It has let me continue to play (and CK) the game I love and have loved for decades.
_________________
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin
-
Philotomy Jurament
- Ulthal
- Posts: 428
- Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Treebore wrote:
Alright, here is my edited version so you can easily do a direct comparison to see what I changed:
Treebore, I think it may be tweaked a bit more to make it clear and more cohesive, if you are fine with this fine, if you want to change it a bit abck or further, feel free. Either way yours was fine enough, though not readily usable, i believe.
Quote:
Basically the game itself is closer to older editions than 3.X in all aspects, but then it does not mean 3.X is useless, feats will become uses of the Siege Engine (attempt what? Well, that is a DC X, roll, add your level and modifiers and see if it beats up) and skills are the bare bones of that engine.
Clerical domains wouldn't hurt the game one bit, but aren't needed because the cleric's thing is not anyone's elses. Multi classing is not handled in the core books, but there is the Crusader magazine (issue 4) with two different takes, first a gestalt style, second is the "make a class to suit your needs", Troll lord provides Gygax's system (from castle Zagyg), which mimics AD&D 2nd edition system. At last, when you look at fan works and the community there are many other multiclass options around, including 3.X style.
If you like kits and prestige classes they may be incorporated, the former become new classes easily enough while prestige classes can be the same: new class taken at higher level and changing your direction or focus, the old name level concept. In the end it all comes down to how you would like the concepts to work within your game, as said.
Making new classes and races is really easy, the only troublesome thing might be purely spellcasting classes, but that is basically because of the spells and the spell list and not really for the class itself.
We have played 3 sessions, we had about 3 or 4 combats a session, some taking less than 20 minutes, none going for more than 40. Making a character is extremely easy and fast, we took 20 minutes (including equipment purchases). For the CK it is rather simple to run, there are no overcomplicated monster abilities and all tests are in fact attribute checks, so you won't have to re-read pages and pages every time something new comes up, or even if the same old thing is used in a new way.
The system certainly is not perfect, but we can easily change whatever we want, mainly because we can easily grasp what effects the changes have. For the me DMing 3.X became a torture, C&C seems like a walk through a park, you will enjoy it and when you are over you won't even know what was not so good about it.
Nifelhein.
Now back to the topic in discussion.
artemis wands wrote:
Thanks, everyone, for your insightful responses.
I just finished reading the 'Why Play C&C?" page, and I think I'm just about converted. Most likely, I'll be ordering the PHB and MT this weekend.
You will want to read the foreword to the PHB too, it is a one page pdf free of charge found at troll lord's website (linked) that shows what C&C is meant to be. I must say the foreword alone sold it to me, reading the book stays true to the spirit expressed in it the chapter meant for CKs has shown that the game's real concern is story, mood, scene and fun, while mechanics are there, they shouldn't get in the way of the others, but serve them, and serve you too.
Quote:
I'm usually the DM (for a group that converted from AD&D 2nd ed. to 3.5), and I've grown increasingly wary of 3.x campaigns because of all the planning involved. While I love 3.5 from a player's perspective, I'm loathe to DM it any more; it is meant to be a hobby, not a second job, if you know what I mean. Players are supposed to kill kobolds with swords, not calculators.
From a player's view 3.X is the dream thing, customizable, power expanding, variable and ultimately, appealing, from a Dm's view it is a world of dreams gone wrong, long preparation time, re-read everything that may see use in the game, a lot of mechanics specific for each skill, feat and monster, not to say combat actions, and worse than all, a time drain, more often than not you will work on the system level and let the story side loose, an unnaceptable road.
Quote:
We've been missing the feel of the old days, while hoping to keep the cool stuff about the new ones. It looks like C&C will be the answer to our dilemma.
And it's nice to see Mr. Gygax back in action.
C&C is like old editions in how it looks, feel and play, but takes all the story of design into account, it aims for the best in how it keeps old flavor and stories into a new mechanic, one meant to be simple, easy and customizable, and so far, it has proven to be that well enough.
Whatever you want to do is possible, all that you need is imagination and a good CK, the engine is meant to say how you will do things, not what you can do (unlike feats huh).
I hope this helps further your ideas a bit more.
Cheers,
Nif.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
One can also use a certain serleran's classless character system instead of multi or dual classing, as it destroys the archetypes outright and lets the player "pick and choose" what they want. Just saying....
Otherwise, everything has been said.
Oh, I'd say this though, on monster and/or race design.... very easym but its what I do for TLG, so I'mma biased, non?
Otherwise, everything has been said.
Oh, I'd say this though, on monster and/or race design.... very easym but its what I do for TLG, so I'mma biased, non?
Nif,
True, but I felt that if I changed it more it would be "me" saying it instead of you.
I think it is important to keep the individual voice that even written material has. A fair number of people can tell when something is written by one person, or many.
If you look at the original document I believe you can tell that those are really opinions written by many different people, even with my editing, due to different word useage and phraseology. So I want to leave enough of your uniqueness in what you wrote for people to be able to tell a different indiviual wrote it.
So if I clean up what you wrote any more than I have I think it will read like I wrote it instead of someone else, IE you.
Now if you want to re-write it that would be better, because it will still have your word useage, etc...
True, but I felt that if I changed it more it would be "me" saying it instead of you.
I think it is important to keep the individual voice that even written material has. A fair number of people can tell when something is written by one person, or many.
If you look at the original document I believe you can tell that those are really opinions written by many different people, even with my editing, due to different word useage and phraseology. So I want to leave enough of your uniqueness in what you wrote for people to be able to tell a different indiviual wrote it.
So if I clean up what you wrote any more than I have I think it will read like I wrote it instead of someone else, IE you.
Now if you want to re-write it that would be better, because it will still have your word useage, etc...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
How about the one i presented in that last post of mine, it is a revised version of the one you changed, really.
though I can put it into a specific format, since msot of the Why Play piecees are in a very different format.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
though I can put it into a specific format, since msot of the Why Play piecees are in a very different format.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Nifelhein wrote:
How about the one i presented in that last post of mine, it is a revised version of the one you changed, really.
though I can put it into a specific format, since msot of the Why Play piecees are in a very different format.
Sorry, I thought you just quoted my re-write, so I didn't actually read it. Yeah, sounds/reads good. I'll copy and paste it and send it to the Trolls to see if they will add it.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Mea culpa, i did not say anything about having rewritten it in the first place.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
_________________
"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects." - Attributed to Herman Melville.
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artemis wands
- Ungern
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:00 am
Nifelhein wrote:
From a player's view 3.X is the dream thing, customizable, power expanding, variable and ultimately, appealing, from a Dm's view it is a world of dreams gone wrong, long preparation time, re-read everything that may see use in the game, a lot of mechanics specific for each skill, feat and monster, not to say combat actions, and worse than all, a time drain, more often than not you will work on the system level and let the story side loose, an unnaceptable road.
Yep.
I ordered my copies of the PHB, 2nd printing, and MT today. And already I'm scouring this site and the others linked in that sticky post, seeing what other people have done. I am truly amazed and humbled at the level of fan support for C&C, and I can't wait to become a full-fledged participant.Quote:
C&C is like old editions in how it looks, feel and play, but takes all the story of design into account, it aims for the best in how it keeps old flavor and stories into a new mechanic, one meant to be simple, easy and customizable, and so far, it has proven to be that well enough.
Whatever you want to do is possible, all that you need is imagination and a good CK, the engine is meant to say how you will do things, not what you can do (unlike feats huh).
I hope this helps further your ideas a bit more.
Cheers,
Nif.
Thanks, once again, to all who answered my queries. I shall be around more when I actually get my books and start designing/running a campaign.
I have answered the call of Crusade!
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Omote
- Battle Stag
- Posts: 11560
- Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
- Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
- Contact:
The call of the Crusade... If one were to just take the time to experience, Castles & Crusades, the call of the Crusade sings to the heart. New swords are always welcome.
.................................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
.................................................Omote
FPQ
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<
Welcome! I hope its as good for you as it has been for me.
I would say even better, but I think we would have to get into the realm of near-sexual experiences for that. We try to stay kid friendly on these boards.
I would say even better, but I think we would have to get into the realm of near-sexual experiences for that. We try to stay kid friendly on these boards.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
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artemis wands
- Ungern
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:00 am
Good, cuz you're probably not my type anyway.Treebore wrote:
Welcome! I hope its as good for you as it has been for me.
I would say even better, but I think we would have to get into the realm of near-sexual experiences for that. We try to stay kid friendly on these boards.
I should have the core books by Nov. 7, and I've already started making notes for a campaign idea, set in a homebrew I've been knocking around for a couple of years.
I think my players will be an easy sell.
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artemis wands
- Ungern
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:00 am
I have convinced my fellow players to give C&C a whirl. We've got two campaigns in other game systems to finish off before then, so it'll be a while, but...
I just can't stop looking up all the material online. I haven't been this excited about a new game in a long time. I'm even making notes for a campaign without having even read the darn rules yet!
Did anyone else feel this way before you got your books?
I just can't stop looking up all the material online. I haven't been this excited about a new game in a long time. I'm even making notes for a campaign without having even read the darn rules yet!
Did anyone else feel this way before you got your books?
I kind of did. Of course cncplayer.net and all these other great resources hadn't really been created yet.
But when the book (PH first printing) came out and I read it I spent several months just developing how I wanted to handle it.
Nothing intense and in depth, just checking out a lot of other peoples ideas and reading through my old 1E/2E and even OD&D material (that was fun in and of itself, especially knowing that I could use anything I liked again!). Plus deciding what I wanted to keep from 3E and how I would incorporate it (IE feat like actions and skills).
Its been about a year now of regular playing and it is still a work in progress.
But when the book (PH first printing) came out and I read it I spent several months just developing how I wanted to handle it.
Nothing intense and in depth, just checking out a lot of other peoples ideas and reading through my old 1E/2E and even OD&D material (that was fun in and of itself, especially knowing that I could use anything I liked again!). Plus deciding what I wanted to keep from 3E and how I would incorporate it (IE feat like actions and skills).
Its been about a year now of regular playing and it is still a work in progress.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.