Troll Lord Games

I've been running a 4E game for a while and am thinking of throwing in the towel and finishing up the module using C&C instead.

Converting the characters over seems like such a pain. My usual style is to "wing it" and I figure I could probably just convert "by feel" and no one in my group would worry much about it, but if anyone has actually gone through the steps before perhaps it would save me some time/effort along the way.

Anyone have some quick guidelines for this?

finarvyn,

I've not played 4th edition, I've run a 4th edition module with C&C rules (see my posting over on the Goodman Games forum).

I'd do what you're thinking about. Just convert the PCs over keeping as much of the flavor of the character as possible. That may include a strong helping of the new multi-class appendix in the back of the 4th printing of the Players Handbook.

When we converted from 3.5 to C&C, the PCs were a bit stronger than if they had climbed to 10th level using C&C rules.

1. remove all the players feats.
2. remove all powers.
3. replace defense values with saving throws.
4. re-roll hit points and remove healing surges.

.... why would you want to do this again? Just looking for something a bit more simple?

concobar wrote:1. remove all the players feats.
2. remove all powers.
3. replace defense values with saving throws.
4. re-roll hit points and remove healing surges.

.... why would you want to do this again? Just looking for something a bit more simple?

Because not everyone loves the complexity of your favorite game?

Breakdaddy wrote:

concobar wrote:.... why would you want to do this again? Just looking for something a bit more simple?

Because not everyone loves the complexity of your favorite game?

Mostly a matter of game feel. Our 4E adventures so far have really bogged down in combat and a single encounter seems to take our entire game session to resolve. I was hoping to slide over to something faster but maybe maintain some of the 4E flavor.

I had a similar thing happen years ago with d20 Call of Cthulhu. I was running a modern magic game with d20CoC and it seemed to get hung up, so I switched to Eden's Buffy the Vampire Slayer rules and the whole thing just opened right up again.

Just a matter of getting the right fit of games to gamers, I guess.

Breakdaddy wrote:

concobar wrote:1. remove all the players feats.
2. remove all powers.
3. replace defense values with saving throws.
4. re-roll hit points and remove healing surges.

.... why would you want to do this again? Just looking for something a bit more simple?

Because not everyone loves the complexity of your favorite game?

one persons complex is another persons simplicity I guess. D&D4e seems dead simple to me, more simple than many of the other games to be sure and plays much smoother than previous edition, at least when I am running it anyway. That said my favorite game is Traveller, either CT or Mongoose Traveller. Sadly no one in my area plays Traveller and my game group is strictly fantasy role-play, D&D to be specific.

finarvyn, I wasnt attempting to be snarky at all. What about D&D4e do you want to keep? Wouldn't it be more simple to just reboot using C&C or what have you? I actually gave this a bit of thought and realized that there is simply no good way to convert a 4e character to C&C or vice versa. A 4e fighter, even an essentials one is so much more involved than a C&C fighter to the point that they share almost nothing in common other than the title.

Have you given essentials a look btw? The essentials classes are much more simple than the PHB counter parts and seem much closer to earlier editions in play style and mechanics.

My house rules would make it easier to convert, because any feat in 4E could be done using my SIEGE check rules covering a feat, which also allows for them to earn these as a character specific power.

concobar wrote:finarvyn, I wasnt attempting to be snarky at all. What about D&D4e do you want to keep? Wouldn't it be more simple to just reboot using C&C or what have you?

Well, my players love the concept of having lots to do. A typical 1st level magic-user in OD&D or C&C doesn't get as many spells or "cool stuff" as a 4E one, for example. They enjoy having the healing surges. They like some of the new races (in fact, no one picked Human as a race in the whole party). I know that some of this is setting detail and other is mechanics detail, but at this point much of this is still intertwined in my brain.

concobar wrote:Have you given essentials a look btw? The essentials classes are much more simple than the PHB counter parts and seem much closer to earlier editions in play style and mechanics.

I picked up two of the essentials books -- the consolidated rulebook and the class book for fighters/magic users/clerics/thieves -- but I haven't really had a chance to absorb it all.

I guess I compare the number of pages in 4E (PH, DMG, MM) and compare it to OD&D or C&C and that contributes to my information overload. Also, I like to master all aspects of a game that my players use, but since 3E is more of a "game of exceptions" I don't feel like I have all of the powers, etc down yet so I'm constantly surprised by what their powers can do. (This is certainly a function of me being used to one game line and trying to switch gears, and I don't handle change well. )

My "secret" to running 4E:
1. Players have more responsibility for knowing their powers
2. Character Builder software handles details and prints off power cards, etc.

So far 4E isn't too bad, and my players seem to enjoy the game, but I just feel like we're moving so slow and the encounters just seem to take forever. Also, 4E is a lot more "tactical" than OD&D or C&C and I think my female gamers will start to lose interest faster since they aren't "into" miniatures gaming or wargaming.

Also, I like C&C.

concobar wrote:one persons complex is another persons simplicity I guess. D&D4e seems dead simple to me, more simple than many of the other games to be sure and plays much smoother than previous edition, at least when I am running it anyway.

It's funny, as I've seen some folks refer to 4e as "dumbed down" and other folks refer to it as complex. So which is it? In the end, I guess it depends on your POV.

finarvyn, I wasnt attempting to be snarky at all. What about D&D4e do you want to keep? Wouldn't it be more simple to just reboot using C&C or what have you? I actually gave this a bit of thought and realized that there is simply no good way to convert a 4e character to C&C or vice versa. A 4e fighter, even an essentials one is so much more involved than a C&C fighter to the point that they share almost nothing in common other than the title.

You have to rebuild the character from the ground up using the new rules system.

Have you given essentials a look btw? The essentials classes are much more simple than the PHB counter parts and seem much closer to earlier editions in play style and mechanics.

I tried the knight build for the fighter, and I loved it. It felt so much more old school. You know, sometimes a guy just wants to roll a d20 and hit a bad guy without worrying about powers and such.

I'm really glad to see this thread. Lately, I've been bumming about 4e some, but I'm not sure if it's due more to the system or the some of the recent events by the company behind it. I'm not a WotC basher by any means, but the hullabaloo surrounding Character Builder and Essentials has kind of put a downer on things for me.

When 3e/3.5 was big, I found myself disliking various elements of the system. I liked the basic premise of the system, but it always seemed more complicated than it need be. I looked at C&C for a while. While I liked the basics of the system, it seemed to be missing a few things that I liked having (i.e. skills). So I was working on some house rules that put my C&C game somewhere between C&C and 3e.

Enter 4e. The game was very different. Yet, it solved a lot of issues that I had with 3e. It was simpler. It used level in a very similar way that C&C used level. I especially enjoyed the use of levels with skills, as figuring skill ranks could be a pain at times.

And yet, I find myself doubting once again. I know part of it is the tactical nature of the game. I know part of it is my own nature.

I was thinking about C&C again and about adapting the things I like about 4e to C&C rules. And yet, I find the task to be a bit much. 4e has introduced a lot of new elements I like. I don't think the races would be that hard, but the classes would be. There is no psion, no avenger, and no warlock.

Maybe I need to focus less on the rules, and focus more on play style. WotC designs adventures as encounters, yet I'm far more of a storyteller gamer. Maybe I just need to ignore things like skill challenges (which I really don't like, and have never pulled off successfully).

Anyway, just some random ramblings.

Dragonhelm wrote:I was thinking about C&C again and about adapting the things I like about 4e to C&C rules. And yet, I find the task to be a bit much. 4e has introduced a lot of new elements I like. I don't think the races would be that hard, but the classes would be. There is no psion, no avenger, and no warlock.

That's sort of where I am, conceptially. I figure that races would be a quick conversion and I hope to grab some features from 4E to enhance C&C.

I asked my kids what they liked best about 4E:

• Wife: The fact that magic-user characters got to more magic things. She doesn't like running out of spells in my older edition games.
• Daughter, 15: The fact that she can play any race combined with any class without limits.
• Son, 18: The power levels and the feeling of being awesome at low levels.

I guess those are the parts of 4E I'd most want to capture.

Well, you could give the wife unlimited ability to cast cantrips or, like I have done in my game, give the mages a staff that has an "any time" magical ability a-la the 3rd edition warlock. The daughter is going to be easy to please with C&C. The son is going to be your sticking point, due to the fact that C&C doesnt cater to the hero to superhero scale that D&D has adopted. Even the low level guys are heroes in 4e, especially when compared to older editions or a game like C&C. This is neither good nor bad, but a matter of taste. If you want to capture it in C&C, the easy way would be to start them at mid level and just take levels 1-2 (or even 1-4) completely out of the picture for player characters.

I find it pretty simple to display the awesomeness of being a PC... the majority of the world is one of two things: a monster or 0-level. Compared to that, the PCs have all kinds of neat abilities.

I've done some integrating of C&C with 4e and 3.x with various ideas.

The biggest things to transfer to C&C is to do away with the Powers (At-Will, daily, encounter) for most classes. Replace Wizard Spells with spells from C&C books, trying to keep them on a name to name basis as the same spells (so Fireball in 4e becomes the C&C fireball).

HP is a little tougher, simply take away a kicker. Reduce 4e HP by 20 HP at 1st-5th level. Reduce HP by 10 HP for 6-10th level, and reduce HP by 5 HP at 10-20th level. This will result in slightly higher HP at 1 and 2 levels for some classes and perhaps a little lower than average for upper levels (if they had Cons modifiers that is).

With skills, it's really easy. Keep skills like they are, but give them a +6 bonus for trained instead. I'd substitute the 4e skills system in replacement for the C&C siege system for ease of transistion.

You can let them keep their feat bonuses as well. It makes them a little more powerful, but nothing that is going to have them tromp monsters like 3.X feats could in relation to C&C power levels.

just some of the starting tips I'd give for a 4e to C&C conversion.

Also consider using class and a half to simulate some of the 4e classes. Again, if they arent at level 3 or above, I would consider dropping a level or 2 on them, especially if you add class and a half. I find that Class and a half adds a very cool dimension to characters. When Mark Sandy had us playtest those rules a few years back I was dubious about their utility. I am no longer. USE CLASS AND A HALF!

serleran wrote:I find it pretty simple to display the awesomeness of being a PC... the majority of the world is one of two things: a monster or 0-level. Compared to that, the PCs have all kinds of neat abilities.

Serleran, that's exactly what I do as well. Recently, I had the party attacked by twice their number in bandits. The players were all worried, even though their PCs were all 4th and 5th level. They had spent too much time in 3.X where everything was of compatible level. None of the bandits had above 5 hit points and the PCs wiped the floor with the 0-level bandits.

Player characters are the John Wayne's of the world. They are head-and-shoulders above the average fellow!

finarvyn wrote:

Dragonhelm wrote:I was thinking about C&C again and about adapting the things I like about 4e to C&C rules. And yet, I find the task to be a bit much. 4e has introduced a lot of new elements I like. I don't think the races would be that hard, but the classes would be. There is no psion, no avenger, and no warlock.

That's sort of where I am, conceptially. I figure that races would be a quick conversion and I hope to grab some features from 4E to enhance C&C.

I asked my kids what they liked best about 4E:

• Wife: The fact that magic-user characters got to more magic things. She doesn't like running out of spells in my older edition games.
• Daughter, 15: The fact that she can play any race combined with any class without limits.
• Son, 18: The power levels and the feeling of being awesome at low levels.

I guess those are the parts of 4E I'd most want to capture.

Make 0-level spells at-will. All either the players to choose, per level, one at-will or encounter or daily power, subject to your approval and adaption to C&C. Or, even better, encourage them to try just doing such actions in your game and use the SIEGE rules to see if they succeed (e.g., "I'm going to cleave the hobgoblin so precisely that it'll bleed the rest of the encounter unless he stops to staunch the wound." CK: "Okay, roll to hit. If you do and do at least half damage with your weapon, roll a SIEGE check using your Intelligence. If you succeed, he'll lose a hitpoint per round...."

Treebore wrote:My house rules would make it easier to convert, because any feat in 4E could be done using my SIEGE check rules covering a feat, which also allows for them to earn these as a character specific power.

Can you post that houserule on using SIEGE checks to covering a feat/power, then earning it as a PC power, again?

As a side note: the CKG has an entire chapter dedicated to new ways to empower PCs, including an entire section dedicated to new powers for PCs focused on their desired roles (defensive, offensive, magical, etc.). This could be very helpful in converting.

Breakdaddy wrote:As a side note: the CKG has an entire chapter dedicated to new ways to empower PCs, including an entire section dedicated to new powers for PCs focused on their desired roles (defensive, offensive, magical, etc.). This could be very helpful in converting.

Sweet. Thanks!

You bet, man. If you pick up a copy, you'll likely find a lot that you'll want to use in there.

GreyLord wrote:I've done some integrating of C&C with 4e and 3.x with various ideas.

The biggest things to transfer to C&C is to do away with the Powers (At-Will, daily, encounter) for most classes. Replace Wizard Spells with spells from C&C books, trying to keep them on a name to name basis as the same spells (so Fireball in 4e becomes the C&C fireball).

HP is a little tougher, simply take away a kicker. Reduce 4e HP by 20 HP at 1st-5th level. Reduce HP by 10 HP for 6-10th level, and reduce HP by 5 HP at 10-20th level. This will result in slightly higher HP at 1 and 2 levels for some classes and perhaps a little lower than average for upper levels (if they had Cons modifiers that is).

With skills, it's really easy. Keep skills like they are, but give them a +6 bonus for trained instead. I'd substitute the 4e skills system in replacement for the C&C siege system for ease of transistion.

You can let them keep their feat bonuses as well. It makes them a little more powerful, but nothing that is going to have them tromp monsters like 3.X feats could in relation to C&C power levels.

just some of the starting tips I'd give for a 4e to C&C conversion.

Nice. Thanks!

Breakdaddy wrote:Also consider using class and a half to simulate some of the 4e classes. Again, if they arent at level 3 or above, I would consider dropping a level or 2 on them, especially if you add class and a half. I find that Class and a half adds a very cool dimension to characters. When Mark Sandy had us playtest those rules a few years back I was dubious about their utility. I am no longer. USE CLASS AND A HALF!

"Class and a half"?

JediOre wrote:

serleran wrote:I find it pretty simple to display the awesomeness of being a PC... the majority of the world is one of two things: a monster or 0-level. Compared to that, the PCs have all kinds of neat abilities.

Serleran, that's exactly what I do as well. Recently, I had the party attacked by twice their number in bandits. The players were all worried, even though their PCs were all 4th and 5th level. They had spent too much time in 3.X where everything was of compatible level. None of the bandits had above 5 hit points and the PCs wiped the floor with the 0-level bandits.

Player characters are the John Wayne's of the world. They are head-and-shoulders above the average fellow!

+1!

Breakdaddy wrote:You bet, man. If you pick up a copy, you'll likely find a lot that you'll want to use in there.

When does the CK go on sale?

The CKG is on sale now. Class and a half refers to the rules of the same name presented in the last few pages of the 4th print players handbook. Sorry I missed your question about that earlier.

Breakdaddy wrote:The CKG is on sale now.

Coolio. Are all three Core books available for purchase as a set?

Breakdaddy wrote:Class and a half refers to the rules of the same name presented in the last few pages of the 4th print players handbook. Sorry I missed your question about that earlier.

I think I only have the 3rd printing

A set of C&C b ooks is not for sale as of yet for some special price, but Steve has mentionede one would be at some point. They are of course for sale individually for a pretty fair price.

~O

finarvyn wrote:I asked my kids what they liked best about 4E:

• Wife: The fact that magic-user characters got to more magic things. She doesn't like running out of spells in my older edition games.
• Daughter, 15: The fact that she can play any race combined with any class without limits.
• Son, 18: The power levels and the feeling of being awesome at low levels.

To satisfy your wife, I would do many things you probably don't want posted on a message board (I kid, I kid), but I've made a few changes to spellcasters that improve that.

1) Add full casting attribute bonus to 0th level spells per day
2) Free casting of 0th level spells.
3) Introduction of 3e's "Ray of Frost" cantrip (1d6 damage, no attack roll).

The ability to throw around simple frost rays, doing no more damage than could be managed with their other weapons, makes wizard players so happy. Throwing in relatively common wands of that level of spell also works.

Your daughter's favorite bits are already in C&C. Your son's... they're harder, IMO, to manage with C&C. While you are a lot better than common people, you're not the same level of awesome. Not sure how to address that one.