Troll Lord Games

D&D has become extremely fragmented in segments of players who all favour different editions and versions of those editions.

From what I gather, the CKG, as well as having alot of general gaming advice has vast quantities of "crunchy bits", which had hitherto been deliberately absent from C&C. Of course people will pick and choose these crunchy bits, some adding many, some a few, others none.

But has the release of the CKG (and it seems well received so far) set C&C onto the path of inevitably becoming a "crunchier" game overall, as more and more of the CKG rules get adopted as standard, worked in setting releases and modules etc etc. Yes you only need to add into your game what you want or none and yada yada yada. BUT.....

Is this the first beginnings of a possible split between those who like un-crunchy C&C and those who may end up playing a very crunchy version reminiscent of other more recent rpg's?

They can't get adopted as "standard" unless the Trolls use them in future products. The only thing I know of being used as a "standard" is level progression above 9th.

So C&C is going to being staying the "standard" of house rule it to your groups tastes.

I will be surprised if some of the rules don't start creeping into productions. But I have been completely wrong many times before.

zarathustra wrote:I will be surprised if some of the rules don't start creeping into productions. But I have been completely wrong many times before.

I'd be more apt to agree with this if there were a relative army of people writing for the game. The Trolls, however, have remained rather small in their numbers of writers they've brought on board, so I suspect that everybody in the Troll Dens would be on the same page as to what goes into official TLG-written or sanctioned material. Third party publishers are another matter entirely, but anything coming out through TLG, I would think, would require the approval of Steve (of the Corrosive Flatus) before it goes out the door.

Long story short, I'm not all that worried about it.

Don't think the rules from the CKG will creep into other TLG products, at least not very many. Just don't see that happening.

~O

Personally, I'd like to think that the pre-CKG C&C rules would be that elegant, simple (but not simplistic) template used for tournament play, and other multi-player games outside of one's own home-group.
That way, any C&C player could play (or run) a pick-up game with ease and familiarity of rules.

Yeah, any home-group can (and will) crunchify as much as they'd like, knowing as we all do that gaming caveat: as long as it's FUN!

Knowing how the Trolls tend to run their games, I'd say that most products will see little to no inbuilt CKG variant rules. Just a guess based on what I've seen in the games I've participated in.

Breakdaddy wrote:Knowing how the Trolls tend to run their games, I'd say that most products will see little to no inbuilt CKG variant rules. Just a guess based on what I've seen in the games I've participated in.

I hope so.

I only play with the (Advanced ) Rules from the Castle Keepers Guide. Anyone who plays without them is only playing with 2/3 of the game! A much lesser version for sure! Still limitted rules for limited minds I guess. Maybe there are still people playing those (old) rules but then I guess there are still people playing Horse Shoes for a nights fun.


Hahaha I just can't go on with it.

I do not think the type of rpg player that likes C&C is the type to be like the above. I really just do not see it. The number one advice ever posted here seems to be...Do whatever you want,Do it your way and you can't go wrong.

...GameOgre, you may be right -- haven't seen the CKG yet, so
I cannot comment on what the Advanced rules are.

Why do I have the feeling you did not read the last half of my post saying that the first half was a joke?

I can see the occasional rule used to enhance an encounter. The Haunted Highlands does this, pulling the option rule into a sidebox so people know it's a different beast.

GameOgre wrote:I only play with the (Advanced ) Rules from the Castle Keepers Guide. Anyone who plays without them is only playing with 2/3 of the game! A much lesser version for sure! Still limitted rules for limited minds I guess. Maybe there are still people playing those (old) rules but then I guess there are still people playing Horse Shoes for a nights fun.

So now I'm going to quote you... but only this bit... and just leave it here for unwary board adventurers to stumble into if they fail their check. Message board pit trap.

I believe Bowbe has said before that he was considering, or would, use of those adjunct/whatever-they're-called-now things. But, they would remain optional. Those, specifically, are easily ignored if a Castle Keeper does not want to use them, or does not use them. I can see the argument for them -- it does make a NPC somewhat more interesting. I truly doubt TLG will go the route of late AD&D 2nd Edition... so I would not worry. Besides, perhaps if it encourages people to consider options, then it might even be a good thing. There are those out there that "need" something presented to them -- my wife, for example. She wouldn't create a rule, but if there was one already, she might use it.

Now, as far as board discussions go... that's probably not going to change. It may be needed that to understand a question one may need to say they're also using XYZ options as we do not all, currently, even use the same stuff, so that's no big deal.

GameOgre - oh me, oh my...yep, I totally misread that 2nd half of
your posting. Thanks for pointing it out - or, as Scooby Doo might
say: "Retro".

Thing is. This would not be the first split, as it were. There are folks who stick with our first white box collectors set, and don't play with the hard back books. They like the short list of classes.

I expect we'll have another dynamic for when C&C basic comes out who wants to stick with a set that has a short list of human classes, and a race class or three.

The only real solution to the problem is just a matter of accepting that one persons taste is not that of another. Whatever erstwhile version of the game folks might want to play, the simple fact is that all of them are still unified by the same set of fundamental mechanical assumptions.

Then there'll be another split from players of future projects such as Castles and Crusades:The Board Game, C&C Monopoly, C&C Risk, C&C Stratego, C&C Life, Scrabble, Operation, Candy Land, and countless others. Hell, just imagine the split we'll see from players of C&C-TLG Trivial Pursuit. I can imagine the questions. Mundane question...What year was the white box edititon released? Or, what is the Chenault Bros drink(non-alcoholic)of choice? Harder question...Whose dog took a sh!t on a C&C convention banner in the back of whose truck? MAJOR thread derailment. Seriously, I haven't seen the book, but I doubt the Trolls will over-crunchify the main game.

zarathustra wrote:D&D has become extremely fragmented in segments of players who all favour different editions and versions of those editions.

From what I gather, the CKG, as well as having alot of general gaming advice has vast quantities of "crunchy bits", which had hitherto been deliberately absent from C&C. Of course people will pick and choose these crunchy bits, some adding many, some a few, others none.

But has the release of the CKG (and it seems well received so far) set C&C onto the path of inevitably becoming a "crunchier" game overall, as more and more of the CKG rules get adopted as standard, worked in setting releases and modules etc etc. Yes you only need to add into your game what you want or none and yada yada yada. BUT.....

Is this the first beginnings of a possible split between those who like un-crunchy C&C and those who may end up playing a very crunchy version reminiscent of other more recent rpg's?

So it took us 5 years to write it. And now you expect us to READ IT!?? That's too much! The chances of us reading it anytime soon? Not very good.

No, there will be no change in direction to the approach used by us with previous projects. The material in the CKG is for use by you and your table. C&C writers who work for TLG are not to use it any capacity that forces someone to buy the CKG. If Casey wants to use some rules in DB7, then he will have to include material to cover it so the CK is good to go on the fly.

Realistically the CKG will be referenced from time to time...I'm looking at the very first ever hardback CKG...wait...damnit! Mark took it haha...anyway there are bits and pieces that will serve helpful, such as chemical erosion on a mountain slope, weather patterns, etc; some table to randomly roll stuff for dungeons, outdoors etc.

I can tell you from experience...in real time, as I have joined Davis as co-author on the A series (its now into Aihrde mythology which he does not want to write...Davis and I are writing A8 and there isn't a CKG to be found.

So no schism. Buy the book to learn how to CK or enhance your game; or don't, and carry on as you already are! That's the official policy.

Steve

Nuff said! Trollzah!

tylermo wrote:Nuff said! Trollzah!

Ditto. From the mouth of the Troll, to youir table!

~O

gideon_thorne wrote:Thing is. This would not be the first split, as it were. There are folks who stick with our first white box collectors set, and don't play with the hard back books. They like the short list of classes.

Oh, heck, I fragmented from the "mainstream" C&C community when the 1st printing PH went into 2nd print. You can't mess with perfection and the 1st print was exactly the rulebook I wanted, typos and all.

Band-wagoners who jumped onboard late ... I have no time for any of you!

finarvyn wrote:Band-wagoners who jumped onboard late ... I have no time for any of you!

Ah! While I am a fan of the most recent printings, there is a certain sexyness to the original C&C PHB. Despite the typos, the layout is fresh, the print large, and the whole book is permeated with renegade RPG cowboy mentality!

What's not to love about the first printing?!

~O

Omote wrote:

finarvyn wrote:Band-wagoners who jumped onboard late ... I have no time for any of you!

Ah! While I am a fan of the most recent printings, there is a certain sexyness to the original C&C PHB. Despite the typos, the layout is fresh, the print large, and the whole book is permeated with renegade RPG cowboy mentality!

What's not to love about the first printing?!

~O

*chuckles* Unless I am going senile (which is likely) Finarvyn is one of those very chaps who stuck with the white box. Dude's one of our Spartan 300 if I recall correctly?

Which makes him a grognard of C&C's Thermopylae

I have to agree about the first printing. Great looking book.

Troll Lord wrote:So it took us 5 years to write it. And now you expect us to READ IT!?? That's too much! The chances of us reading it anytime soon? Not very good.

No, there will be no change in direction to the approach used by us with previous projects. The material in the CKG is for use by you and your table. C&C writers who work for TLG are not to use it any capacity that forces someone to buy the CKG. If Casey wants to use some rules in DB7, then he will have to include material to cover it so the CK is good to go on the fly.

Realistically the CKG will be referenced from time to time...I'm looking at the very first ever hardback CKG...wait...damnit! Mark took it haha...anyway there are bits and pieces that will serve helpful, such as chemical erosion on a mountain slope, weather patterns, etc; some table to randomly roll stuff for dungeons, outdoors etc.

I can tell you from experience...in real time, as I have joined Davis as co-author on the A series (its now into Aihrde mythology which he does not want to write...Davis and I are writing A8 and there isn't a CKG to be found.

So no schism. Buy the book to learn how to CK or enhance your game; or don't, and carry on as you already are! That's the official policy.

Steve

HARRUMPH!

The CKG isn't going to cause a split. The 4th print PHB is what's going to do that, because of the changes made to the Illusionist and Barbarian. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I believe with the 4th print PHB Castles & Crusades has jumped the shark. Though the Barbarian did need a bit of a revamp to be less "berserker" and more "Conan", the Illusionist being able to heal, even with the restrictions, simply doesn't work for me.

For me, it's 3d print PHB/2d print M&T, followed by the white box.

Traveller wrote:The CKG isn't going to cause a split. The 4th print PHB is what's going to do that, because of the changes made to the Illusionist and Barbarian. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I believe with the 4th print PHB Castles & Crusades has jumped the shark. Though the Barbarian did need a bit of a revamp to be less "berserker" and more "Conan", the Illusionist being able to heal, even with the restrictions, simply doesn't work for me.

For me, it's 3d print PHB/2d print M&T, followed by the white box.

Hmm. I have the 4th print PHB (my only exposure to C&C, being a relatively new convert) and the illusionist healing is the first thing I baulked at when considering C&C.

I simply shrugged and houseruled all Illusionist healing spells out and added my own replacement spells, since I liked the rest of the system so much.

Interestingly the one other tweak I made to the classes was this, just to give barbarians the option of being besreker or "standard" type (berserkers suited my campaign background).

"● Barbarian can choose whether to gain Primeval Will at 6th level (as per PHB) or Berserk at 4th level. Choice is permanent.
● Berserk: takes 1d3 rounds of combat after A Berserk is declared to enter, lasts for 2d4 +2 rounds.
● During a Beserk he is is +2 on initiative , to hit and damage rolls and gains a +2 on str, con, cha and wis saves.
● He suffers -2 on int/dex checks/saves during a beserk. ● A barbarian is exhausted (1/2 move and -1 on ALL rolls and checks) for 2d4x10 minutes after a Berserk rage.
● Barbarian may never flee or retreat during a Berserk, nor choose any opponent other than the nearest or largest (if many are close) foe. ● Berserk can be entered 1/day at 4th. 2/day at 8th, 3/day at 12th"

Turns out perhaps I would have loved the 3rd printing! I have no idea how those classes looked in the 3rd printing but it is a funny coincidence those were the two I tinkered with in what sounds like similar ways to their original write ups.

For the barbarain, if you wanted to add a berserker type class, just go with the pre4th print version. An extra "offical" class. Myself, I like the "new" barbarian a hell of a lot more than the old one.

R-

Rigon wrote:For the barbarain, if you wanted to add a berserker type class, just go with the pre4th print version. An extra "offical" class. Myself, I like the "new" barbarian a hell of a lot more than the old one.

R-

The 'new' barbarian is all sorts of kickass, and in my opinion, a vast improvement over the old one.

finarvyn wrote:

gideon_thorne wrote:Thing is. This would not be the first split, as it were. There are folks who stick with our first white box collectors set, and don't play with the hard back books. They like the short list of classes.

Oh, heck, I fragmented from the "mainstream" C&C community when the 1st printing PH went into 2nd print. You can't mess with perfection and the 1st print was exactly the rulebook I wanted, typos and all.

Band-wagoners who jumped onboard late ... I have no time for any of you!

I go more old school than thou. I still play with Play-test Version 1. Sometimes, I might break out Play-test Version 2. Rarely, maybe, Version 3 or 3.18... just to remind myself what some people even mean when they say "SIEGE."