More powerful? Really? My saving throw says otherwise.

[nightstorm]

So I was making up a character for a game I'm starting tomarrow and had to decide- wizard or illusionist. Well lets look at the spell selection..ok wizard has the Illusionist beat for utility spells- one mark against the illustionist. But the illusionist has some cool story drivin spells like Dream and what not. Plus some of them do alot of damage. That is if you dont save...
So I'm reading though the spells. Of all the spells shared by wizards and Illusionists, the illusionist spells all get saves. Now I know the reason why, but where's the fairness in that ? who would choose a character where over half of the spells get saves and other casters do not??? A very frustrating thing. I of course can rule otherwise, but there it is.

[Aramis]

Of all the spells shared by wizards and Illusionists, the illusionist spells all get saves. Now I know the reason why, but where's the fairness in that ?.

I am not quite sure what you mean. In the 4th printing of the PH, when a wizard and illusionist spell is shared, they also share the description of the spell, including whether or not it allows a saving throw.

[Breakdaddy]

In the CKG it is stated that you don't get to save against illusions unless you have good reason to "disbelieve". This makes the illusionist a force to be reckoned with.

From the CKG:
"Castles & Crusades allows for various attribute checks and saving throws when encountering magic or magical effects. If someone attempts to “disbelieve,” then allow the player to make the saving throw he would normally make (this is not a second saving throw, just the normal saving throw), adding all the necessary bonuses or CL into the equation."

[serleran]

A properly planned illusion should offer little if any chance to resist. Also, they can, unlike many wizard spells, be layered with each other to provide greater chance that none are disbelieved. A party of illusionists could, with the right tactics, walk through almost anything... assuming they had the spells for it.

[Tadhg]

A properly planned illusion should offer little if any chance to resist. Also, they can, unlike many wizard spells, be layered with each other to provide greater chance that none are disbelieved. A party of illusionists could, with the right tactics, walk through almost anything... assuming they had the spells for it.

Hmm, interesting . . "a party of illusionists". I have from time to time thought about a "all class party" and how it might go.

I wonder which all party class would be the most powerful.

Time for a poll.

[nwelte1]

I never enjoyed the thought of an illusionist until I started to play one. I am playing one in Rigon's Sunday night game. I was blown away by what I could do.

Two examples from one session using silent image (or whatever the level one image spell was):

1. My character threw flour over a group of goblins while casting silent image to make the flour look and act like yellow mold. I used flour because the spell states the illusion does not create texture. I figured the flour would create whatever texture I needed to cause the goblins to believe the spell.

2. My character took a rope knotted it up with loose coils hanging this way and that. He then cast silent image on it to make it appear as a medusa head. If I recall correctly, 3 out of 4 ogres and many goblins failed their saves.

In effect, I was able to use silent image to create mass save or die effects at level 1 and 2.

IMHO, those two uses of silent image dramatically changed the battle. It was at the point I had an ah ha moment and realized illusionists kick arse.

[Treebore]

Fool the mind, win the battle.

[Fiffergrund]

I never enjoyed the thought of an illusionist until I started to play one. I am playing one in Rigon's Sunday night game. I was blown away by what I could do.

Two examples from one session using silent image (or whatever the level one image spell was):

1. My character threw flour over a group of goblins while casting silent image to make the flour look and act like yellow mold. I used flour because the spell states the illusion does not create texture. I figured the flour would create whatever texture I needed to cause the goblins to believe the spell.

2. My character took a rope knotted it up with loose coils hanging this way and that. He then cast silent image on it to make it appear as a medusa head. If I recall correctly, 3 out of 4 ogres and many goblins failed their saves.

In effect, I was able to use silent image to create mass save or die effects at level 1 and 2.

IMHO, those two uses of silent image dramatically changed the battle. It was at the point I had an ah ha moment and realized illusionists kick arse.

I think your CK was very lenient. The first use I completely agree was nicely done. The second...well, not so sure.

I have a requirement that a character must have seen/experienced a creature before you can replicate its appearance and ESPECIALLY its special attacks via illusion.

Phastasmal Force used to have this requirement in the old days. I think it's common sense. The illusion should be bang-on accurate in order to have a chance at that sort of effect.

So it's not very likely that a 1st or 2nd level character would be experiencing a medusa and surviving, much less be able to replicate the effect.

Then you have to consider that an illusion works because the victim believes it to be real. What if those ogres had never seen or heard of a medusa and had no idea they even existed? How could they possibly believe they could be turned to stone just by looking at an ugly head? The *real* head would work, because that's an inherent characteristic of the medusa, but an illusion has to be believed. To believe it, they'd have to know what a medusa was and that it could turn them to stone with a gaze. Then it would have a chance to work on them.

The most I would allow is the general appearance of the head, but not the special attack. That's a bridge too far for me and I think it goes against the spirit of the rules.

[Dead Horse]

I also limit illusions to replicating equal level effects, fireball is 3rd level spell. illusion of fireball can be lower but expect more chance to disbelieve