'Classic' multi-classing... Is it worth it?

[treant_on_fire]

Now, I LOVE the Class and a Half system, but I was curious about the 'classic' multi-classing system.

It seems like it would give horribly underpowered characters for the xp value where not even their variety of different abilities would end up compensating for it... Even the C&C book suggests as much.

Has anyone tried to use the classic multi-classing system in the past, either for C&C or one of the old editions? What were your thoughts on it?

[JediOre]

We've always had the classic AD&D multi-class available for my crew to use. Two of my buddies swears by it. Having a multi-class fighter/rogue (for Trevor) or a cleric/wizard (Bryan) is the only way to go. Those are their top choices.

Are they underpowered due to the experience split? To an extent, yes. However, while they are behind in hit points and levels, they more than make up for it with versatility. Also, while they may be levels 5/5 while the others are 8, they still are getting the share of treasure, which allows them to stand almost toe-to-toe with their single-class companions.

When it comes down to it, multi-classing has to be compatible to the gamer's play style. If one is unwilling to take the negatives and balance them with the positives, the multi-class PC will most likely die out since his creator is very un-pleased with the results. If, however, the gamer embraces the concept and excepts the limitations that go with the flexibility, you will have a very memorable PC at the gaming table.

[treant_on_fire]

We've always had the classic AD&D multi-class available for my crew to use. Two of my buddies swears by it. Having a multi-class fighter/rogue (for Trevor) or a cleric/wizard (Bryan) is the only way to go. Those are their top choices.

Are they underpowered due to the experience split? To an extent, yes. However, while they are behind in hit points and levels, they more than make up for it with versatility. Also, while they may be levels 5/5 while the others are 8, they still are getting the share of treasure, which allows them to stand almost toe-to-toe with their single-class companions.

When it comes down to it, multi-classing has to be compatible to the gamer's play style. If one is unwilling to take the negatives and balance them with the positives, the multi-class PC will most likely die out since his creator is very un-pleased with the results. If, however, the gamer embraces the concept and excepts the limitations that go with the flexibility, you will have a very memorable PC at the gaming table.

Thanks, your reply was very helpful. Because of it I will allow both multi-classing and class and a half for the PCs in my upcoming game. (As one or the other for each player of course :p )

P.S: While I see the validity in a multi-class like cleric/wizard, perhaps the fighter/rogue would be better served by class and a half? I could be wrong of course.

P.P.S: Check the forums in the 'SIEGE Engine & Other TLG Games' section, there's a Star Siege/ Star Wars thread going. Might interest you. :p

[JediOre]

P.S: While I see the validity in a multi-class like cleric/wizard, perhaps the fighter/rogue would be better served by class and a half? I could be wrong of course.

P.P.S: Check the forums in the 'SIEGE Engine & Other TLG Games' section, there's a Star Siege/ Star Wars thread going. Might interest you. :p

Regarding the fighter/rogue, keep in mind the old AD&D way was to divide the experiecne between the classes evenly. Thus it was not uncommon for Trevor's PC to be something like a 5th level fighter, but an 8th level thief. I'm not sure I want to use the multi-class system as outlined in the C&C Players Handbook. We are trying using the rules with another friend of mine. He is playing a cleric/magic-user and is currently level 4(?).

I'll check out the thread you speak of. Oddly, I've never been interested in attempting the Star Wars RPG. I'm content with the movies, the old video game Dark Forces, and a book or two.

[treant_on_fire]

P.S: While I see the validity in a multi-class like cleric/wizard, perhaps the fighter/rogue would be better served by class and a half? I could be wrong of course.

P.P.S: Check the forums in the 'SIEGE Engine & Other TLG Games' section, there's a Star Siege/ Star Wars thread going. Might interest you. :p

Regarding the fighter/rogue, keep in mind the old AD&D way was to divide the experiecne between the classes evenly. Thus it was not uncommon for Trevor's PC to be something like a 5th level fighter, but an 8th level thief. I'm not sure I want to use the multi-class system as outlined in the C&C Players Handbook. We are trying using the rules with another friend of mine. He is playing a cleric/magic-user and is currently level 4(?).

I'll check out the thread you speak of. Oddly, I've never been interested in attempting the Star Wars RPG. I'm content with the movies, the old video game Dark Forces, and a book or two.

Aaaah, that explains why, in my thread about giving C&C stats for Artemis Entreri, someone mentioned levels from 2e in Fighter and Assassin that were not the same.

Was there any extra cost in xp when multi-classing like in C&C or did you simply split xp equally on your two or three classes?

Seems to me like a more viable way to multi-class, in that you get more hp... (Still love Class and a Half of course)

[treant_on_fire]

O.k, so I've checked and...

The AD&D multi-class system means one's character is always a little behind on HD, but nothing drastic, as they have the amount of HD they should have for their xp value, just slowed down.

The C&C Multi-class system means one's character will always have HALF the amount of HD for a character of his xp value. And less bonuses to hit.

The difference of either splitting xp to each class or waiting to have the xp amount of two classes to be collected to level up makes little difference in the long run. However, as said, the C&C multi-class character only gets 1 hit dice for those two levels.

In C&C there's an xp amount to pay for each additional class per level too. I don't know if that is done with AD&D.

I may be wrong here, but it seems to make C&C multi-class characters practically unplayable and too weak with a group that has single-class characters.

Then again if one uses the AD&D multi-classing system, it could perfectly work, but then the Class and a Half becomes underpowered in comparison. However one could use the Class and a Half along with the AD&D multi-class system with the following tweak:

- You don't modify your principal class HD, nor the one of your secondary class.
- Each time you level up as a Class and a Half character, you roll your principal class' HD normally and add the results to your HP. Then you roll the support class HD and include your Con modifiers and what have you normally... After that, don't add your result from your support class yet. Take that result and divide it by two. Your CK decides if you round up or down the result (not depending on each level, it should be set since the start if hp are to be rounded up or down). Add that final amount to your HP.
- When instead of HD you get fixed numbers once you get to a high enough level, simply divide by two the fixed amount of your support class after adding your Con modifiers. Again the CK decides if it's rounded up or down, but a character can never gain less than 1 hp that way (at least not because of dividing by two).

Some feedback would be most welcome.

[JediOre]

Trent_on_fire,

Keep in mind that in AD&D multi-classing, each time one of the classes goes up in level, they do get to roll for hit points and add their constitution modifier, but then that number is than divided by the number of classes the PC has and rounded down to a min. of one. Hit points are the weakest part of multi-classing with the AD&D approach, in my opinion.

If you'd like to see how a C&C multi-class is working in my gaming experience, here's a link to our adventures. We are using Goodman Game's DCC line for the game:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=1292

My friend Terry, Rangar1965 on the boards, opted to play a C&C multi-class cleric/wizard. In my opinion, the class is only slightly behind the others. Finding magical treasure geared towards spell-casters has helped him keep up with experience.

To me, I'll allow any of the three forms of multi-classing, the classic AD&D method and the two as outlined in the C&C Players handbook (4th printing). It really comes down to the play style of the individual.

[treant_on_fire]

O.k, so I've checked and...

The AD&D multi-class system means one's character is always a little behind on HD, but nothing drastic, as they have the amount of HD they should have for their xp value, just slowed down.

The C&C Multi-class system means one's character will always have HALF the amount of HD for a character of his xp value. And less bonuses to hit.

The difference of either splitting xp to each class or waiting to have the xp amount of two classes to be collected to level up makes little difference in the long run. However, as said, the C&C multi-class character only gets 1 hit dice for those two levels.

In C&C there's an xp amount to pay for each additional class per level too. I don't know if that is done with AD&D.

I may be wrong here, but it seems to make C&C multi-class characters practically unplayable and too weak with a group that has single-class characters.

Then again if one uses the AD&D multi-classing system, it could perfectly work, but then the Class and a Half becomes underpowered in comparison. However one could use the Class and a Half along with the AD&D multi-class system with the following tweak:

- You don't modify your principal class HD, nor the one of your secondary class.
- Each time you level up as a Class and a Half character, you roll your principal class' HD normally and add the results to your HP. Then you roll the support class HD and include your Con modifiers and what have you normally... After that, don't add your result from your support class yet. Take that result and divide it by two. Your CK decides if you round up or down the result (not depending on each level, it should be set since the start if hp are to be rounded up or down). Add that final amount to your HP.
- When instead of HD you get fixed numbers once you get to a high enough level, simply divide by two the fixed amount of your support class after adding your Con modifiers. Again the CK decides if it's rounded up or down, but a character can never gain less than 1 hp that way (at least not because of dividing by two).

Some feedback would be most welcome.

ERRATA for my 'boosted' version of the Class and a Half:


- You don't modify your principal class HD, nor the one of your secondary class.
- Each time you level up as a Class and a Half character, you roll your principal class' HD normally and add the results to your HP normally. You roll your support class HD in addition EVERY TWO LEVELS. So a Fighter (principal) /Rogue (support) lvl 1 would get 10 hp plus his Con modifier, lvl 2 would roll 1d10 + 1d6 for his new HP, a lvl 3 would roll 1d10, a lvl 4 would roll 1d10 + 1d6...
- When you start getting fixed numbers, apply the same rule; the support class hp applies only every two levels.

------------------------------------------------

As for Multi-Class, I'd keep it simple with a mix of the AD&D and C&C rules;

You treat the multi-class as a single class which gets two or three HDs every level, depending on if you have two or three core classes.

You add the xp needed to progress for each core class you have together, but don't apply the extra xp cost used in C&C.

You end up with a system very similar to AD&D except that you don't need to keep track of two different sets of xp and your different core classes are always at the same level.

-----------------------------------------------

These two versions I've come up with (which are the ones I'll use most likely) are for games where you don't want a player to be penalized for multi-classing. In other words, if you feel like a multi-classed character should be weaker than a player who chose only one class, then use the rules given in the C&C PH.

If you'd rather have multi-classed characters balanced with other players like in AD&D, use that version or the one I offered, which lends to less book-keeping. I've balanced the 'Class and a Half' to go with the AD&D style of multi-classing. I won't bother you with the averages and all that, but I think it works better and won't make multi-classed characters the weak link of a party.

----------------------------------------------

P.S: Well, I wrote all that before seeing JediOre's latest message which explains I understood the AD&D multi-class wrong. I feel to lazy to re-edit for now... lol

However, I feel like the variants I've come up with are more balanced and fair towards multi-class characters, while not making them as good as simply 'adding up' two classes. For example, my version of multi-class would mean that a Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 will have as many HD as a single-classed lvl 10. However, in that scenario, the multi-classed character doesn't get any Fighter abilities beyond lvl 5. That means that compared to a single-classed Fighter, he doesn't get an Extra Attack and he'll get the 12th lvl version of combat dominance much later. That said, I've come to realize that in C&C, unlike 3.5 (which I'm more familiar with), there aren't many new class abilities beyond the first levels in some cases. The Rogue for example, has all of their abilities by 4th level. After that what makes them improve is the level itself.

So to give multi-classed characters a penalization/balancing factor that wouldn't make single-classed bad choices with the system I explained, I would say that on all rolls involving class abilities, a character only adds the level in that one class to his check. In other words, if this Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 rolls for Traps, he does so as a 5th level character. However if a wizard tries to cast a spell on him, his saving throw remains that of a 10th level character.

[treant_on_fire]

Trent_on_fire,

Keep in mind that in AD&D multi-classing, each time one of the classes goes up in level, they do get to roll for hit points and add their constitution modifier, but then that number is than divided by the number of classes the PC has and rounded down to a min. of one. Hit points are the weakest part of multi-classing with the AD&D approach, in my opinion.

If you'd like to see how a C&C multi-class is working in my gaming experience, here's a link to our adventures. We are using Goodman Game's DCC line for the game:

http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... =20&t=1292

My friend Terry, Rangar1965 on the boards, opted to play a C&C multi-class cleric/wizard. In my opinion, the class is only slightly behind the others. Finding magical treasure geared towards spell-casters has helped him keep up with experience.

To me, I'll allow any of the three forms of multi-classing, the classic AD&D method and the two as outlined in the C&C Players handbook (4th printing). It really comes down to the play style of the individual.

I've checked it, but keep in mind that your players were all low-level in that scenario. The gap will only widen with time.

Under the current rules, a multi-classed fighter/rogue will have 5 HD while all his buddies will have 10 HD. Anytime you pit a monster against that group, the multi-classed character is the weak link. What's worse, it doesn't serve him much to be a fighter if his HP suck.

Keep me updated as those characters advance in level because I'm curious, but I'm pretty set on the rules I've come up with while using AD&D and C&C rules as reference.

If anyone wants an 'edited' version of it clearly written and clearly readable instead of the bit by bit draft I've made all over this thread, let me know and I'll write it.

After Edit: No wait, he might have even less than 5 HD when you take into account the extra xp cost, which I forgot. Still I think that only strengthens my point. :p

[treant_on_fire]

O.k, so I've checked and...

The AD&D multi-class system means one's character is always a little behind on HD, but nothing drastic, as they have the amount of HD they should have for their xp value, just slowed down.

The C&C Multi-class system means one's character will always have HALF the amount of HD for a character of his xp value. And less bonuses to hit.

The difference of either splitting xp to each class or waiting to have the xp amount of two classes to be collected to level up makes little difference in the long run. However, as said, the C&C multi-class character only gets 1 hit dice for those two levels.

In C&C there's an xp amount to pay for each additional class per level too. I don't know if that is done with AD&D.

I may be wrong here, but it seems to make C&C multi-class characters practically unplayable and too weak with a group that has single-class characters.

Then again if one uses the AD&D multi-classing system, it could perfectly work, but then the Class and a Half becomes underpowered in comparison. However one could use the Class and a Half along with the AD&D multi-class system with the following tweak:

- You don't modify your principal class HD, nor the one of your secondary class.
- Each time you level up as a Class and a Half character, you roll your principal class' HD normally and add the results to your HP. Then you roll the support class HD and include your Con modifiers and what have you normally... After that, don't add your result from your support class yet. Take that result and divide it by two. Your CK decides if you round up or down the result (not depending on each level, it should be set since the start if hp are to be rounded up or down). Add that final amount to your HP.
- When instead of HD you get fixed numbers once you get to a high enough level, simply divide by two the fixed amount of your support class after adding your Con modifiers. Again the CK decides if it's rounded up or down, but a character can never gain less than 1 hp that way (at least not because of dividing by two).

Some feedback would be most welcome.

ERRATA for my 'boosted' version of the Class and a Half:


- You don't modify your principal class HD, nor the one of your secondary class.
- Each time you level up as a Class and a Half character, you roll your principal class' HD normally and add the results to your HP normally. You roll your support class HD in addition EVERY TWO LEVELS. So a Fighter (principal) /Rogue (support) lvl 1 would get 10 hp plus his Con modifier, lvl 2 would roll 1d10 + 1d6 for his new HP, a lvl 3 would roll 1d10, a lvl 4 would roll 1d10 + 1d6...
- When you start getting fixed numbers, apply the same rule; the support class hp applies only every two levels.

------------------------------------------------

As for Multi-Class, I'd keep it simple with a mix of the AD&D and C&C rules;

You treat the multi-class as a single class which gets two or three HDs every level, depending on if you have two or three core classes.

You add the xp needed to progress for each core class you have together, but don't apply the extra xp cost used in C&C.

You end up with a system very similar to AD&D except that you don't need to keep track of two different sets of xp and your different core classes are always at the same level.

-----------------------------------------------

These two versions I've come up with (which are the ones I'll use most likely) are for games where you don't want a player to be penalized for multi-classing. In other words, if you feel like a multi-classed character should be weaker than a player who chose only one class, then use the rules given in the C&C PH.

If you'd rather have multi-classed characters balanced with other players like in AD&D, use that version or the one I offered, which lends to less book-keeping. I've balanced the 'Class and a Half' to go with the AD&D style of multi-classing. I won't bother you with the averages and all that, but I think it works better and won't make multi-classed characters the weak link of a party.

----------------------------------------------

P.S: Well, I wrote all that before seeing JediOre's latest message which explains I understood the AD&D multi-class wrong. I feel to lazy to re-edit for now... lol

However, I feel like the variants I've come up with are more balanced and fair towards multi-class characters, while not making them as good as simply 'adding up' two classes. For example, my version of multi-class would mean that a Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 will have as many HD as a single-classed lvl 10. However, in that scenario, the multi-classed character doesn't get any Fighter abilities beyond lvl 5. That means that compared to a single-classed Fighter, he doesn't get an Extra Attack and he'll get the 12th lvl version of combat dominance much later. That said, I've come to realize that in C&C, unlike 3.5 (which I'm more familiar with), there aren't many new class abilities beyond the first levels in some cases. The Rogue for example, has all of their abilities by 4th level. After that what makes them improve is the level itself.

So to give multi-classed characters a penalization/balancing factor that wouldn't make single-classed bad choices with the system I explained, I would say that on all rolls involving class abilities, a character only adds the level in that one class to his check. In other words, if this Fighter 5/ Rogue 5 rolls for Traps, he does so as a 5th level character. However if a wizard tries to cast a spell on him, his saving throw remains that of a 10th level character.

Oh and another Errata for my multi-class version;

- If more than one core class forming the multi-class character has the same class ability, then they can stack. For example, a Rogue 5/ Assassin 5/ Fighter 5 would roll traps as a lvl 10 character and roll saving throws as a 15th lvl character.

AFTER EDIT:

The same goes for Class and a Half characters. Here are some examples, the class with the asterisk being the principal class;

- Fighter*/Rogue of lvl 10 would roll for traps as a 5th lvl character (support class always being half of what the principal class is) and roll saving throws as a lvl 10 character.

HOWEVER in the case of Class Abilities that are found in both classes, they are NOT added! A Class and a Half character can never go beyond his level on level-based check bonuses. So for example;

- Assassin*/Rogue of lvl 10 will roll for traps as a 10th level character, NOT 15th! And then of course he'll roll saving throws as a 10th lvl character.

[JediOre]

Trent_on_fire,

Concerning the group I'm CKing for, just scroll to the end of the thread & you'll see the link to their next adventure. They've made it to 4th and 5th level. Don't forget that with well-placed magical treasures given to the multi-class character, that adds a good boost to experience gains. A 5th level multi-class decked out in treasure for 10th level characters is still far more dangerous than you might think.

Take my two friend's favorite picks, for example:

Bryan would have a 5th level cleric/wizard in the party of what your are thinking would be 10th level single class characters. This multi-class PC can use scroll, wands, and staves just as readily as a single class cleric or magic-user of 10th level. Thus, the party should be funneling such treasure to the multi-class PC. On one round the cleric/magic-user could cast a heal spell upon a friend, via a scroll, and on the next turn use his wand of fire against the monsters.

Trevor's fighter/thief would go straight for the shadows to set up a back attack as a 5th level thief. Then when he attempts his back attack, whether he hits or not, the opponent has a 5th level fighter with, most likely, a powerful magical blade on his unprotected rear.

I've DMed far too many games to say that a multi-class character is the weakest link.

[treant_on_fire]

Trent_on_fire,

Concerning the group I'm CKing for, just scroll to the end of the thread & you'll see the link to their next adventure. They've made it to 4th and 5th level. Don't forget that with well-placed magical treasures given to the multi-class character, that adds a good boost to experience gains. A 5th level multi-class decked out in treasure for 10th level characters is still far more dangerous than you might think.

Take my two friend's favorite picks, for example:

Bryan would have a 5th level cleric/wizard in the party of what your are thinking would be 10th level single class characters. This multi-class PC can use scroll, wands, and staves just as readily as a single class cleric or magic-user of 10th level. Thus, the party should be funneling such treasure to the multi-class PC. On one round the cleric/magic-user could cast a heal spell upon a friend, via a scroll, and on the next turn use his wand of fire against the monsters.

Trevor's fighter/thief would go straight for the shadows to set up a back attack as a 5th level thief. Then when he attempts his back attack, whether he hits or not, the opponent has a 5th level fighter with, most likely, a powerful magical blade on his unprotected rear.

I've DMed far too many games to say that a multi-class character is the weakest link.

O.k, I'll keep that in mind. I guess I'll give the official rules a chance and see how that works.

[Mark Hall]

I had an alternate system of multiclass that represented the "classic" system, but a little bit less oppressively.

Basically, you picked two (or three, if you're human). At 1st level, you are level 1 in one of those classes. Once you reach enough XP to be 2nd level in your most expensive class, you are 1st level in both your classes; still 2nd level for the purposes of saves and class-independent checks. For any given level, you figured out the most expensive class to reach the next level.

So, for example,a fighter/thief could start off at level 1 as a thief. Once he had enough XP to be a 2nd level fighter (because that class is more expensive), he would add a level of fighter... a full 1d10 HD, +1 BtH, and weapon specialization; he'd still have his thief abilities, and get a +1 for those, but he'd save with a +2 for his character level. Once he had enough to be a 3rd level fighter (still more expensive than thief), he could add either a level of fighter or thief. The levels always have to be within 1 of each other (no 5/7s or the like), and he always follows the most expensive class.

This lets someone take two classes without slowing to a crawl, though they'll always be less competent in those two than someone who just followed one.