Troll Lord Games

When I started the thread on the C&C stats for Artemis Entreri, it wasn't long before I started to consider Drizzt. The C&C Ranger actually fits more with the character than the 3.5 Ranger given that C&C's Ranger has no spells. (Of course Complete Champion has a nice Ranger variant that focuses more on fighting and drops the spells but anyhow) Also there's no need to start a whole thread over Drizzt since it's kind of easy; Drizzt is a drow and a 16th level Ranger. There. :p So anyway...

That got me thinking about Level Adjustments and how you couldn't really include them in C&C because each class has a different xp progression... So what if each race better than the default race had a xp racial debt to pay off?

For example, a character wanting to play a race better than the normal ones would start with a debt of <amount depending on how good the race is> XP. Every time that character gains XP, a percentage of that goes to pay off his debt (Something between 5 to 50% depending on what the CK considers is fair. The bigger the debt, the higher the percentage should be imo, but in the long run it changes little) Once the debt is finally paid off, the character will gain xp like any other character of his class(es), but he'll always be behind on his xp by the amount his race required.

This of course should only be allowed for long-running games, or at least games that will last long enough for the character to actually pay his debt and be behind on the other players class-wise in exchange for his 'better' race.

Thoughts?

I haven't actually needed to do this a of yet, but I have thought about it and my thoughts have pretty much mirrored yours. Deciding on what the XP cost should be will definitely be the tricky part.

treant_on_fire wrote:So what if each race better than the default race had a xp racial debt to pay off?

I think that's an elegant solution, and I'd love to see an implementation worked out.

I've started working on it... Since there's others who are interested in the idea I'll come back with a draft for how it would work in this thread very soon.

yeah i think you're on the right track. Sooner or later someone is going to want to play a minotaur or pixie etc etc and this would be a good way to do it perhaps.

Something similar to StarSIEGE's race-building would work well here.

I tinkered with the idea of racial XP benchmarks. The PC hits an XP amount and they get a racial bonus. My pulp fantasy, over-the-top version is below for an example. Never got to used it in actual play, though:
Advanced Racial Ability Bonuses for Standard DnD races

Human:
Humanity is known for men who carve out nations with only sheer determination and personality.
Benchmarks

625 XP
+2 on Charisma based Savings throws

1875 XP
Automatically stable when at -1 to -9 hit points

4250 XP
Permanent +1 Attribute Modifier to a Prime of choice

Halflings:
A race that feels a deep kinship with those in their community and the surrounding environment. There there always seems to be those attracted to the world of men. Either way, never assume simply because they have to look up at you, that you have the right to look down upon them.
Benchmarks

625 XP
An additional +1 Racial bonus to their Ranger, Rogue and Assassin Modifiers. Halflings also get a +1 to all saves

1875 XP
+2 damage bonus with slings and thrown weapons

4250 XP
Permanent +2 Attribute Modifier to Dex.

Dwarf:
The Dwarves experience in selling their crafts around the world has evolved into the world-wide banking system in Eberron.
Benchmarks

625 XP
An additional +2 Racial bonus to Stonecraft and saves against fear

1875 XP
Deep vision increases by 30 feet and an additional +1 to Poison savings throws

4250 XP
Permanent +2 Attribute Modifier to Con.

Elf:

The Elves in Eberron are a strange breed, fascinated almost as much by death as they are with Nature.
Benchmarks

625 XP
n additional +1 Racial bonus to light weapons and bows

1875 XP
A spell-casting Elf gets a bonus 1st level spell, while all elves get an additional +2 for listening checks

4250 XP
Permanent +2 Attribute Modifier to Int.

Gnome:
If you've feel that you made a great deal with an Eberron gnome, you're probably blessedly unaware of how much you actually lost.
Benchmarks

625 XP
An gnome illusionist gets 1 bonus spell in addition to a +3 racial bonus on SEIGE check related to listening and haggling.

1875 XP
Regardless of class, a gnome can cast Mirror Image as a spell-like ability. It's considered cast by a 4th level illusionist.

4250 XP
Permanent +2 Attribute Modifier to Char.

Half-Elf:
The Half- Elves in Eberron are often blessed with Dragonmarks and many are involved in guild politics to become respected and admired.
Benchmarks

625 XP
+2 on Charisma based Savings throws

1875 XP
A spell-casting Half- Elf gets a bonus 1st level spell, while all half-elves get Twilight Vision. Those already blessed with Twilight Vision get a 50 % bonus.

4250 XP
Half-Elves get a +2 racial bonus on checks related to persuasion and diplomacy

Eberron Races:
The Advanced Racial Abilities are in addition to the starting racial bonuses. If the CK thinks the Warforged or the Changeling original bonuses are too high powered, they can simply delay these racial bonuses, using them as substitute Racial Abilities.

Warforged:
The Warforged lead something resembling a life, never sleeping and always on duty. These former crafted soldiers are now considered citizens and have a freedom they were never built to fully understand or utilize.
Benchmarks

625 XP
Armored Chassis: The Warforged gets to chose one permanent AC/armor bonus that incurs no encumbrance, but takes up enough space that no other armor can be worn.
● A +1 AC bonus
● A +3 Armor bonus that counts as ring mail for purposes of class restriction.
● A +7 bonus that counts as plate for purposes of class restriction

1875 XP
Permanent +2 damage with attacks made from the PC body, whether it's a unarmed strike, slam or weapon that's been integrated into the warforge's body.

4250 XP
Permanent +2 attribute modifier to Constitution

Changelings:
The Doppleganger halfbreed are now a race of their own. Always excepted when they impersonate someone else and feared for heir true nature, few Changleings keep an innocent view for long. They make great spies and thevies.
Benchmarks

625 XP
When you are the target of a divination spell or telepathic/magical mind power of 3rd level or lower (such as detect thoughts), the PC gets a savings throw. If successful, the PC can generate misleading thoughts. He has no idea which spell/power was used on him or why.

1875 XP
Quick Change: A Changeling can now use its Minor Change Shape ability even it has gone its full movement. Before this bonus, the PC had to use an attack action to use the ability.

4250 XP
Changlings get a +2 racial bonus on checks related to persuasion, impersonation and disguise

Shifter:
Away from human civilization, the Shifters view self-reliance and embrace their lycanthropic heritage as their natural edge for surviving in the wild frontier.
Benchmarks

625 XP
While shifting, the PC gets a +1 on SEIGE checks related to listening, sensing motive and spotting things. The PC also gets a +1 on initiative.

1875 XP
While shifting, receive a +1 AC bonus and and a +2 bonus to Dex. based savings throws.

4250 XP
Shifters get a permanent +2 attribute modifier bonus to Strength

Kalishtar:
Part spirit, part humanoid, the Kalishtar are like the animals driven before a firestorm. They are constantly on the run from those that oppressed them in the dream world. The enemy has borrowed the Kalishtar's methods and now have their own agents, The Inspired, who woo the royal courts as ambassadors while sowing the seeds for a psionic coup.
Benchmarks

625 XP
Psionic Shield: A psionic small shield hovers before the Kalashtar, offering a +1 AC bonus to ranged and melee attacks to the character's front.

1875 XP
Gesalt: Kalashtar within 60 feet of each other can share a +1 bonus to initiative and Int. based savings throws.

4250 XP
Kalashtar get a +2 racial bonus on checks related to persuasion and diplomacy

I considered this, too, and you may be happy with it ut I just couldn't get it to work for me.

This is what I was attempting:

LA +1 = 20% XP penalty
LA +2 = 35% XP penalty
LA +3 = 50% XP penalty

I'm not a big fan of the unified experience table that 3.x employs. But one beauty of it is that it made multi-classing a beautiful thing and it made playing powerful classes easy, too. Level Adjustment, in design (and truthfully, in practice, too, in my opinion) is a beautiful system.

One thing I notice is the difference in where the lag is for adjusted characters. In D&D, the level adjustment puts a character behind early, and eventually they catch up. Honestly, they always stay a level or two behind, but at high levels this makes little difference. If an XP penalty system is implimented in CnC I think it would mean the level gap is not noticiable in the lower levels, but as levels get higher the gap would be noticible. If you make the XP penalty too small, then it becomes trivial. To big, and it's a problem. Many people may not agree with it, but I see why Gary put level limits on demihumans.

I think this method could work, but a good middle spot has to be found for the penalty.

This would actually work out pretty well for some of my custom races, many of which are notably more powerful than the 'average' races.

Lord Dynel wrote:I considered this, too, and you may be happy with it ut I just couldn't get it to work for me.

This is what I was attempting:

LA +1 = 20% XP penalty
LA +2 = 35% XP penalty
LA +3 = 50% XP penalty

I'm not a big fan of the unified experience table that 3.x employs. But one beauty of it is that it made multi-classing a beautiful thing and it made playing powerful classes easy, too. Level Adjustment, in design (and truthfully, in practice, too, in my opinion) is a beautiful system.

One thing I notice is the difference in where the lag is for adjusted characters. In D&D, the level adjustment puts a character behind early, and eventually they catch up. Honestly, they always stay a level or two behind, but at high levels this makes little difference. If an XP penalty system is implimented in CnC I think it would mean the level gap is not noticiable in the lower levels, but as levels get higher the gap would be noticible. If you make the XP penalty too small, then it becomes trivial. To big, and it's a problem. Many people may not agree with it, but I see why Gary put level limits on demihumans.

I think this method could work, but a good middle spot has to be found for the penalty.

Well, if I can be so blunt, what you tried doesn't work for the reasons you stated... But you forget entirely my concept of it being a 'debt' to be paid in XP and NOT a permanent penalty. So after a certain amount of xp that's been paid, it's considered you have 'paid' for whatever good stuff you had above average and can progress as normal from there. It's essentially Level Adjustment for C&C.

treant_on_fire wrote:Well, if I can be so blunt, what you tried doesn't work for the reasons you stated... But you forget entirely my concept of it being a 'debt' to be paid in XP and NOT a permanent penalty. So after a certain amount of xp that's been paid, it's considered you have 'paid' for whatever good stuff you had above average and can progress as normal from there. It's essentially Level Adjustment for C&C.

I expect bluntness, as I often respond in kind.

I didn't forget your concept. I don't think it would work every well, either, to be honest. Well, I believe it could, but it suffers the same way my option does - there has to be a balance between how XP is paid back and at what percentage, lest the penalty is not right for the race. As Tree said, deciding the XP is the trinky part. I was going by my general assumption that our systems aren't too different, and both suffer from the same issue.

It is not impossible to "port" Level Adjustment directly over. Find the most expensive class and look at the number of levels the character is assumed to be equivalent. Add 1. That is the amount of XP the character must earn before becoming "level 2" in their chosen class.

I have not had problems with it, but I tend to also just create the race as a class and not care about the rest. Its not hard to do whatever you want... you just have to do it.