2e bard

[Rigon]

Here is a take on the 2e bard one of my players is interested in playing.

The Troubadour
Prime: Charisma
HD: as assassin
EXP chart: as cleric
BtH: as assassin
Weapons: any
Armor: leather, studded leather, laminar leather, mail shirt, cuir boullie, mail hauberk
Abilities: all bard abilities, listen, pick pocket, climb, spells*
*Spells: Upon gaining 3rd level, the troubadour selects which type of magic he can cast, arcane, divine, druidic, or illusion. Once the choice is made, the troubadour must abide by all restrictions for casting those types of spells. If the troubadour has a high enough score for bonus spells based on the type of magic he selected, he gains bonus spells. However, because he is only a dabbler, the troubadour acts as a caster of 2 levels lower. (ex. Cwell the Fine selected arcane magic when he reached 3rd level. Now at 6th level, he casts as a 4th level wizard.) Because of the complexity and intricateness of high level spells, troubadours can only learn up to 6th level spells. Troubadours tend to select spells that are more useful on the stage or in the inn than those for dungeon crawling or combat.

R-

[Breakdaddy]

A good take on it. I've never been a fan of the 2e bard personally, but I know some cats are silly with all of the spelly-bardiness of 2e Bards

[Relaxo]

Looks good to me.
Was always a fan of 2e bard, oddly enough.

[serleran]

Nice foundation. I would consider a few possible minor modifications based on the "school" of magic they take:

Arcane -- gain decipher script

Illusion -- gain disguise

Divine -- gain bonus language(s) [I'd probably say 2.]

Something to consider but I like the notion. Yours adds a little variety without being overly complicated.

[Omote]

There was a Bard class in 2E? Learn sumpin' new every day.

~O

[Relaxo]

Nice Ideas, Robert!

@ Omote: yes, it was called "Bard"
(sorry, I'm in a wise ass mood today)

[Omote]

Smart ass.

I played 2E, for at least 2-3 years back in the 90s. Just don't remember the bard. Don't think I played withg anybody or GM'd for anybody who played a bard.

~O

[Mark Hall]

Smart ass.

I played 2E, for at least 2-3 years back in the 90s. Just don't remember the bard. Don't think I played withg anybody or GM'd for anybody who played a bard.

~O

Really? That's fairly amazing to me, given how popular they tended to be around here.

[Peter]

I always played a Bard in AD&D 2e. I managed to play every kit from The Complete Bard’s Handbook, as the DM's were usually quick to kill me off

[zarathustra]

I never liked how bards could cast spells in 2e, but that is neither here nor there.

It looks workable, but TBH I probably would have pointed the player at the bard class Bard, the class and a half rules and then whichever flavour spellcaster he wanted.

[Rigon]

Nice foundation. I would consider a few possible minor modifications based on the "school" of magic they take:

Arcane -- gain decipher script

Illusion -- gain disguise

Divine -- gain bonus language(s) [I'd probably say 2.]

Something to consider but I like the notion. Yours adds a little variety without being overly complicated.

High praise indeed. Thank you good sir.

R-

[Rigon]

There was a Bard class in 2E? Learn sumpin' new every day.

~O

Not right, man. Not right at all.

R-

[Rigon]

I never liked how bards could cast spells in 2e, but that is neither here nor there.

It looks workable, but TBH I probably would have pointed the player at the bard class Bard, the class and a half rules and then whichever flavour spellcaster he wanted.

When the player first mentioned playing a 2e styled bard, I suggested C&aH, but he is not too keen on those rules and I am not using them for this campagin. So I wrote this up today.

R-

[Peter]

I never liked how bards could cast spells in 2e, but that is neither here nor there.

It made sense to me. They didn't get to learn that many. They picked up their spells from various sources, like from the back of a napkin that someone left at one of their shows. And, although I don't think it was specified, I always selected spells that the Bard would use. Like for a Jester, I'd pick spells such as Grease or Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.

For C&C, it makes even more sense to allow other classes to cast spells. Seeing as wizards can attempt to pick pocket and such with a siege check. Why not the other way around? Heck, if an Illusionist can walk around pretending to be a cleric, the least the Bard can do is make a Stinking Cloud.

[zarathustra]

It made sense to me.
For C&C, it makes even more sense to allow other classes to cast spells. Seeing as wizards can attempt to pick pocket and such with a siege check. Why not the other way around? Heck, if an Illusionist can walk around pretending to be a cleric, the least the Bard can do is make a Stinking Cloud.

OK, we are getting off topic so sorry for the thread derail OP.

I suppose it just comes down to the level of magic you want flying around.
Personally, I prefer magic to be rarer, those who can cast it whispered about in hushed tones. So even if someone were to find a spell scribbled on the back of a napkin, they would lack the special inner spark needed to bring it to life.

This does three things, makes mages rarer obviously, makes magic a bit more special when it is revealed and makes people wonder about those who can cast it; why are they different? What have they done to gain that power? Are they in league with eldritch powers? Sold their soul? Are they even human at all? Etc etc.

It is just an atmosphere/setting thing. Just a personal preference. Some people have more fun in a rollicking good game where magic abounds and is constantly whizzing past your ears, nothing wrong with that. Other people prefer a different style. (Personally Illusionists do not heal IMC either).

[Peter]

@Rigon

Shouldn't the Bard's exp be higher or the same not lower, seeing how he gets to keep everything except HD and shield and gains some rogue abilities and spells?

[Rigon]

@Rigon

Shouldn't the Bard's exp be higher or the same not lower, seeing how he gets to keep everything except HD and shield and gains some rogue abilities and spells?

The assassin's xp is higher than the C&C bard.

R-

[Peter]

Sorry for the edit. But you got me lost

Assassin at level 12 500,001
Bard at level 12 800,001

[Rigon]

I wa only looking at the lower levels. Good point. Perhaps I need to revisit it.

R-

[Rigon]

I edited the troubador a hair. I changed the xp to that of a cleric and added druidic to the types of magic he can learn. If I get around to it, I may add an actual list of armors allowed.

R-

PS: Ok, I got around to it. It took me about 3 minutes. I also added a sentence at the end about what types of spells a troubadour tends to select.

R-

[Peter]

Here's spell lists, based on what spells bards get in 3e, minus the healing spells. These are just spells that exist in the C&C Player's Handbook. I plan on expanding these, as I'm working on my own version.

0-LEVEL BARD SPELLS (Cantrips)

DANCING LIGHTS
DETECT MAGIC
GHOST SOUND
KNOW DIRECTION
LIGHT
MAGE HAND
MENDING
MESSAGE
OPEN/CLOSE
PRESTIDIGITATION

1ST-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

ALARM
CHARM PERSON
COMPREHEND LANGUAGES
DETECT SECRET DOORS
ERASE
FEATHER FALL
HYPNOTISM
IDENTIFY
READ MAGIC
REMOVE FEAR*
SILENT IMAGE
SLEEP
UNSEEN SERVANT
VENTRILOQUIST

2ND-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

ALTER SELF
ANIMAL MESSENGER
BLUR
DARKNESS*
DETECT THOUGHTS*
HOLD PERSON
HYPNOTIC PATTERN
INVISIBILITY
LOCATE OBJECT*
MAGIC MOUTH
MINOR IMAGE
MIRROR IMAGE
MISDIRECTION
PYROTECHNICS
SCARE
SEE INVISIBILITY
SHATTER
SILENCE
SOUND BURST
SUMMON SWARM

3RD-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

BLINK
CLAIRAUDIENCE/ CLAIRVOYANCE
DISPEL MAGIC
GASEOUS FORM
HASTE*
ILLUSORY SCRIPT
INVISIBILITY SPHERE
MAJOR IMAGE
SECRET PAGE
SPEAK WITH ANIMALS
SUGGESTION
SUMMON LESSER MONSTER
TINY HUT
TONGUES*

4TH-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

CHARM MONSTER
CONFUSION
DETECT SCRYING
DIMENSION DOOR
FEAR
FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT
HALLUCINATORY TERRAIN
LOCATE CREATURE
RAINBOW PATTERN
REPEL VERMIN
SCRYING
SECURE SHELTER
SHADOW CONJURATION
SHOUT
SPEAK WITH PLANTS

5TH-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

DREAM
FALSE VISION
HOLD MONSTER
MIRAGE ARCANA
NIGHTMARE
PERSISTENT IMAGE
SEEMING
SHADOW EVOCATION
SHADOW WALK
SUMMON MONSTER

6TH-LEVEL BARD SPELLS

FIND THE PATH*
GEAS
GREATER SCRYING
LEGEND LORE
MASS SUGGESTION
PERMANENT IMAGE
PROGRAMMED IMAGE
PROJECT IMAGE
TRANSMUTE FLESH AND STONE
VEIL

[Lord Dynel]

I suppose it just comes down to the level of magic you want flying around.
Personally, I prefer magic to be rarer, those who can cast it whispered about in hushed tones. So even if someone were to find a spell scribbled on the back of a napkin, they would lack the special inner spark needed to bring it to life.

This does three things, makes mages rarer obviously, makes magic a bit more special when it is revealed and makes people wonder about those who can cast it; why are they different? What have they done to gain that power? Are they in league with eldritch powers? Sold their soul? Are they even human at all? Etc etc.

It is just an atmosphere/setting thing. Just a personal preference. Some people have more fun in a rollicking good game where magic abounds and is constantly whizzing past your ears, nothing wrong with that. Other people prefer a different style. (Personally Illusionists do not heal IMC either).

I agree 100%. I like the fact that C&C only has four spellcasting classes. Make magic a lot more rare. And I especially agree with the illusionist healing, zara. But, I digress.

I'll try to stay with the topic at hand and keep my personal feelings at bay.

I think a lot of the spells from the 3rd edition bard ovelaps with the C&C illusionist. I think this could be, actually, a good replacement for the illusionist, if there was a desire to remove that class. I think Peter did a good service, posting these spells, however. I don't know if it would be a direct port of spells. Were it me, I would be a bit more selective of whihc spells make the cut, give them a lower maximum spell level (like only up to 4th level spells), and reference more 2nd edition spurces for spells. YMMV, of course.

[zarathustra]

I always selected spells that the Bard would use. Like for a Jester, I'd pick spells such as Grease or Tasha's Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.

Two of my favourite spells also! Grease is so damn useful! You can thwart charges, lay it as a trap, use it offensively to take down opponents or defensively to have them drop some dangerous weapon/item (2e version anyway).

[Relaxo]

YES! Grease is a fun spell. it seems silly, but like you said, it's very useful for a clever player.

[Peter]

If anyone would like to check out my version, it's in my Rules Compilation. It's a full write up, with full spell lists.

[Rigon]

If anyone would like to check out my version, it's in my Rules Compilation. It's a full write up, with full spell lists.

I'd like a look.

R-

[Peter]

It can be downloaded in the thread here http://trolllord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9809