Slight discrepancy with advantages

[Lord Dynel]

I sat down with my CKG last night and looked at a section that my players were very interested in using when the CKG eventually got released - advantages (formerly known as adjuncts). I wanted to go over them to make sure they weren't too powerful/broken/what-have-you. One thing, in particular, I noticed was how one advantage kind of neutralizes a few others, making them unnecessary.

The dwarven advantage Stalwart Courage gives +2 saves vs. fear. The Halfling advantage Hardy givee +2 on Con saves, but with a prerequisite of a Con of 13. Rock-Gut, a half-orc advantage, gives a +1 Con save vs. poison and tainted food and water.

In and of themselves, they are pretty good advantages. All of them pretty decent, none seemingly too powerful nor too weak.

Then I got to Charmed Existence. For no prerequisite, one can get a +2 on any attribute's saving throws. This outshines the other three advantages. Why have a +2 against fear when you can have a +2 against all charisma saves? Hardy equals CE as far as the bonus to Con saves, but without the Con requirement (CE has no prerequisite). Rock-Gut gets totally blown out of the water against CE - why bother with a +1 save against poison when you have a +2 vs. all Con saves?

I have two routes in which I want to go. Bump all racial advantages to a +4 bonus (even Hardy, which would equate to a +4 on con saves, but keep the prerequisite) or drop the Charmed Existence bonus to +1 (and still move Rock-Gut to +2).

Any suggestions?

[Relaxo]

Me? I'd drop CE to +1, YMMV
Perhaps add a prerequisite? or just void it.

[Lord Dynel]

Yeah, Relaxo, I think I might drop Charmed Existence to +1, with no prereq. I think I'll still raise Rock-Gut to +2, to kind of go along with the prescendent of Hardy and Stalwart Courage. I'd rather not have the big jumps to +4 if I can help it.

[moriarty777]

I haven't reviewed that section yet but a few things come to mind. Can a character gain multiple advantages? If so, then comes the question of whether or not you can stack them. I suppose that could depend on the style of game you wish to run. A few other things also come to mind but, as I mentioned earlier, I still need to read it...

M

[Treebore]

Yeah, sounds like dropping it to +1 is a good idea.

[Rikitiki]

...or, you could hold the advantages in reserve and, after a
character of the appropriate race has two (or more) instances
of in-play-experience that is equivalent (Half-Orc got poisoned
but saved for half or got antidote/cured just before dying),
THEN award that advantage to the character as something
they earned.
Just a thought.

[zarathustra]

...or, you could hold the advantages in reserve and, after a
character of the appropriate race has two (or more) instances
of in-play-experience that is equivalent (Half-Orc got poisoned
but saved for half or got antidote/cured just before dying),
THEN award that advantage to the character as something
they earned.
Just a thought.

Don't have my copy of the ckg yet (a few more days!!!) but the "advantages" concept was leaving me cold until this idea, which I really like.

It is similar to an idea I once came across where a weapon could become magical if great deeds were done with it and enough folk believed in it/depended upon its protection.

[Relaxo]

+1
very cool, that, the advantages and the magic sword.

[Go0gleplex]

...or, you could hold the advantages in reserve and, after a
character of the appropriate race has two (or more) instances
of in-play-experience that is equivalent (Half-Orc got poisoned
but saved for half or got antidote/cured just before dying),
THEN award that advantage to the character as something
they earned.
Just a thought.

Pretty good thought.

[serleran]

You could also smack an advantage with a XP cost, treating the more powerful ones as a limited sort of "class and a third."

[Dead Horse]

Couldnt you just take both advantages and have a fantastic save?

[Lord Dynel]

Sure you could take both advantages and have a fantastic save. My issue wasn't with that. I don't even know if what I have is called an issue...more like a complex, but I digress.

Seriously, I was looking at the merits of one compared to the other. There are plenty of advantages in the chapter and though one could take both, chances are players will pick the one that gives the best "advantage" to their character (no pun intended) and move on to other advantages. They may take both, but that might be an exception and not the norm. Assuming that, there are some advantages that are clearly better than others, ones that do what one advantage does and then some (or does what one does without the prerequisites).
Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it seems that if you have a more specific advantage/feat/merit - one that's narrower in scope - it should give a greater benefit to that limited aspect. A broader covering advantage should not be as good as one that's more limited else the more limited would, at least theoretically, would never be chosen.

[Lord Dynel]

I was just talking to a friend and he brought something to my attention, after perusing the section:

"You might want to think about humans. Only can humans can get the Charmed Existance advantage, where demihimans get access to that plus their exclusive ones. Humans get a chance to get a +2 on a given attribute save, once. Dwarves can get the same thing, and then get an additional +2 against fear...halflings can be exceptionally hardy and get a +4 on constitution saves. By lowering Charmed Existance, you hamper humans chace to get a decent benefit out of the advantage. But yeah, Rock-Gut is kinda lame...up it to +2."

So that's something to think about.

[Omote]

Think about one aspect of the CKG versus another one. In the chapter that describes character levels 13-24, one of the paragraphs at the beginning of the section says that character's are not neccessarily balanced against one another at 24th level. Each class is designed to be their own, and have abilities that are enhancements to the class. No class is given an ability to balance it against any other class. The same could be said with some of the advantages.

Advantages are broken down into racial advantages and general advantages. Every race can get the +2 save advantage, but other races can get different advantages that are similar to this one but exclusive to their own race, on top of Charmed Existance.

~O

[Lord Dynel]

Advantages are broken down into racial advantages and general advantages. Every race can get the +2 save advantage, but other races can get different advantages that are similar to this one but exclusive to their own race, on top of Charmed Existance.

~O

Yeah, that's pretty much what my friend said. I suppose that makes pretty good sense.