Perception as an Attribute

[Piperdog]

I know this has been addressed before, but I am starting to lean on creating a Perception attribute for my C&C game. Originally, I always felt that Wisdom was more of a spiritual connectedness, a measure of will, and the psyche of character more than a measure of alertness and perception. Wisdom just seems overtaxed in our games where everybody is constantly making Wisdom checks to notice things, track, avoid ambush, etc.

What do you guys think?

[Treebore]

Back in my 1E and 2E days I used to have such an attribute. I averaged INT and Wisdom and then had them roll it or less on a D30. It worked pretty darn well. Been thinking about going back to it on and off over the last couple of years.

[serleran]

I do not use SIEGE for surprise. I use an AD&D-like method on a d12. Rangers, for example, are both better at surprising and avoid it. It is modified by Wisdom, but changing the component also eliminates the whole "clerics are incapable of being surprised" argument.

For other things, such as searching for secret doors or what-not, I gauge on three criteria:

1) who is searching and how -- IE, a thief looking for something specific is more likely to find it than not; this allows role-playing, equipment, race, and class to all become a factor

2) how long is the search; this can work in both directions -- the longer you look, the more likely you will be interrupted and possibly even bury what you wanted to find (say, by moving furniture from one wall to the other...)

3) how well hidden is the searched-for thing; I usually use my table for traps from Engineering Dungeons as a baseline, and then decide if I want the thing found or not. If I want it found, then its automatic.

I usually go with a +/- 1-4 depending on how awesome things are, using the d12 as mentioned above.


I'm not a huge fan of adding in alternate attributes. Sure, a Perception and Intelligence of 18, both Prime, would allow one to play Sherlock Holmes... but, that could also be done with class abilities.

[mbeacom]

I think you could definitely do something like that, especially if you use a lot of perception type things in your games.

Personally, I would try to keep it simple and use the siege mechanic somehow for consistency.

For example, I would use 18 as the challenge base. If the player or players have a class skill that is relevant, (I.E. Rangers getting ambushed in the woods, dwarves noticing something about a stone object, thieves detecting a mechanical device, or a wizard detecting a magical item, etc) then I would call that challenge base as being prime, 12. Then I would add their level to the roll plus a conditional modifier based on what they tell me they are doing. If they describe how they search and it sounds productive, say a +2. If they describe how they attempt to avoid an ambush, a further +2 etc.

[Mark Hall]

I let people use the better of Wisdom or Intelligence.

[Omote]

Perception could be an attribute, but why go through all of that? Make it a simple d20 check the higher the better. Assign certain classes to have a bonus to this check at certain intervals. Perhaps use WIS MOD to augment this roll. Perhaps the CC is always 18.

Just a simple mechanic.

~O

[koralas]

See, we always viewed Wisdom as more of a "street smarts"/"common sense" (how you apply what you know, and we were always confused as to why a character with a very low Wis had to be a thief) attribute along with the more emotional/spiritual side of the intellect. This in contrast to Intelligence which is more about what you have learned, that is what you know. In this sense, Wisdom factoring in Perception makes sense.

Now having a separate attribute for Perception also begs then, do you have an Appearance attribute to differentiate from Charisma as well? It would tend to make sense in many ways.

May I ask, how often your players are falling back to die rolls for those items you mention as opposed to role playing the situation? Obviously there are times where you may need to check for things that haven't been mentioned to the players since none could have observed the source, but more to the point, are the players falling back to roll playing as opposed to role playing. Most of the time that a character role plays a situation well, I do not call for a check of any kind and simply result with success, other times, depending on the situation, they may need to make a roll but get a bonus. Conversely horrible role playing results in automatic failure or penalties if a roll is still called for. Doing this for some players may take some time to get them used to RP instead of rp, but in the end they get the hang of it, and continue

Point in case, I played in a Dark Heresy campaign where there are skills galore. One of those is Search, and when we would finish off the opponent and went to search his body for anything, the GM had us roll to see what we could find. So... The bad guy was shooting us with a Lasgun (Laser Rifle), yet after he went down, since none of us made our roll, the lasgun was no where to be found!!! Imagine, you just sliced the guy with a psychic sword (pure psi energy, wielded with your Willpower instead of your weapon skill, yeah!), standing right next to him, he falls at your feet, and you can't find a 4' long weapon he was just using to try and shoot you with as you charged him!!! In another example, there was a charm hidden in a heretic's pocket, I stated I was searching his body, emptying his pockets, doing a pat down, etc. and the GM still had me roll to find the charm I was specifically looking for, that was in the pocket I already said I was searching... Way overkill on the use of die rolls as opposed to role playing.

[Just Jeff]

With only six stats, each covers a lot of territory. While it's perfectly reasonable to split various pieces of a stat off in order to differentiate character abilities, I like a high level of abstraction and I'm willing to pay the bundling price that comes with it, sorting out the differences via roleplaying. It's up to you to decide where your comfort level is and find a good set of house rules or a system to match.

[Piperdog]

Perception could be an attribute, but why go through all of that? Make it a simple d20 check the higher the better. Assign certain classes to have a bonus to this check at certain intervals. Perhaps use WIS MOD to augment this roll. Perhaps the CC is always 18

Your right O. I just get tired of clerics being the most alert, just because their wisdom is usually high. I can make perception checks be a base of 18, no matter what peoples primes are, or maybe allow, as others have said, take the better of two attributes, say Int or Wis, to notice things. I always push for roleplaying out how people are searching, what they are doing to maintain alertness, and so on, using die rolling sparingly; still, when the time comes, I want it to make sense.

[Mark Hall]

One thing to keep in mind about perception checks... thieves should have an advantage. It IS a class feature, after all.