Troll Lord Games

Ok, I've been tossing around the idea of importing "Surge Values" into C&C... not healing surges as discreet amounts of healing per day, but, rather, rating healing in percentages healed.

For reference, the surge value is equal to 1/4 your maximum HP. So, if you have 20 HP, your surge value is 20/4 or 5.

Do you see a particular issue in importing these, and changing the healing spells to make use of them? For example, Cure Light Wounds goes from curing 1d8 HP (an enormous amount for a 1st level wizard, a piddling amount for a 10th level fighter) to 25% of HP. 4 CLW will heal anyone from "barely alive" to "fully healed". In this scheme, CSW would be 2 Surge Values, CCW would be 3 Surge Values, and Heal would be 4 Surge Values (plus other effects).

Depending on if I want real "gritty" or not, I could certainly go with this. As it is I kept the 3E rule for adding level to all healing spells, my only caveat is that it still cannot do more than the dice maximum. So a Cure light will still do no more than 8 HP. But since items and potions are made by high level NPC's in C&C, most potions and items automatically heal for max in my games already. So not sure if I would really need to add the 4E 'surge" idea or not. So far I haven't.

That's an interesting idea, and I may well try it. Currently, my house rule is that all healing spells go for the full amount if they are cast in a non-threatening situation. If the caster cannot relax and concentrate on maximizing the spell (e.g., in combat), then a roll is made.

It might be interesting, especially if the healing % increases with level of the spell or caster level though that would be a little math heavy.

serleran wrote:It might be interesting, especially if the healing % increases with level of the spell or caster level though that would be a little math heavy.

Not the level of the caster, but the level of the target.

For example, at 1st level, with 8HP, your thief would heal 2 points when a CLW was cast upon him. At 6th level, with 32 HP, he would heal 8 points from a CLW... even if the caster was 1st level both times.

hmm... this is a very interesting idea. I am intrigued.

But .... while this idea clearly makes CLW more useful when the recipient is at higher levels, it does, of course, reduce the value of CLW for those puny 1st level characters. Imagine your 8 hp, 1st level rogue gets hit by an orc for 7 HP and is down to 1 hp. As it is now, there is a chance that she will be fully cured by a single CLW (if the cleric rolls a 7 or 8), and a pretty good chance (50%) of ending up with at least 6 HP after the CLW (the cleric rolls 5, 6, 7 or 8). If you institute your healing surge %, then she can only ever gain 2 HP (25% of 8), and can thus only ever be cured to a max of 3 HP. Thus the CLW is a lot less useful for her at 1st level.

I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, but it will make 1st level characters that much more fragile.

I know. On the other hand, unless you're staying at 1st level, it greatly increases the utility of those low-level slots, especially as the game progresses. Since, in our group, your high HP monsters tend to take up most of the healing, it keeps them from needs 5 or more to fully recover... they will always top out at 4.

dunbruha wrote:That's an interesting idea, and I may well try it. Currently, my house rule is that all healing spells go for the full amount if they are cast in a non-threatening situation. If the caster cannot relax and concentrate on maximizing the spell (e.g., in combat), then a roll is made.

oh I like that!

Relaxo wrote:

dunbruha wrote:That's an interesting idea, and I may well try it. Currently, my house rule is that all healing spells go for the full amount if they are cast in a non-threatening situation. If the caster cannot relax and concentrate on maximizing the spell (e.g., in combat), then a roll is made.

oh I like that!

I have been using something similar. Basically, healing spells have a minimum per die of the number of rounds spent casting them. Spend 8 rounds, and you'll always get 8 HP per spell.

Surges work pretty well in 4E to be honest, certainly they make math and healing simpler and faster by eliminating die rolls. Thats both good and bad IMO. As 4E is built, it's a net gain I think. In C&C I think it would be a wash. Due to its simplicity, it already moves pretty fast so the speed increase would be less beneficial. The simplicity boost is always nice though. It also makes combat tactics easier for healers as their capabilities will be MUCH less "swingy". One thing that is cool about 4E (depending on how you look at it) is that healers generally know EXACTLY how much healing they are able to dish out, literally down to the single HP. So if they are attentive they can really spread it around nicely. In C&C, the feel being different, I think it might change things. That being said, I don't feel like it would break anything once you get above about 3rd level. I think another poster is right that you'd be crippling your healers at low levels. As a player, I would definitely not like that during early levels.

And after all that I think I'd probably go with the guy who said healing does max outside of combat and die roll inside of combat. I really like the feel of that. It "makes sense" to me. The surge idea, while very interesting and mechanically sound, doesn't "make sense" to me.

It seems interesting enough, though as said, it has several, IMO, fatal flaws. Just a quick look at a 10 hp per level max progression, the surge percentage is not much better than a Paladin's lay hands ability, being 1-2 hp difference by 4th level. If I were to go the surge route (mighty big if), then I might look at making it a separate ability like the lay hands with a set number of times per day geared off either CHA or WIS.

It's definitely interesting, and on the whole, I like the idea, but I think-- whether he meant to or not-- Serleran brought up a good point about it.

Say an 8th level fighter and a 1st level thief, both hacked up in separate combats, go to the same 2nd level acolyte and receive a cure light wounds spell. Both regain 25% of their HP max.... say, 16 for the fighter, 2 for the rogue. After another fight, they enlist the aid of an 8th level priest, who also casts CLW. Again, they receive 16 and 2, respectively.

Now, it might just be me, and maybe I'm getting caught up in the numbers side of it, it seems odd to say that a cleric, regardless of level, would heal the same amount every time (until the target levels), or that the same spell would cure such a disparity of HP based on what level the target is, as opposed to the level of the caster.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea, but I think I personally would have to modify it to the point where the math might get counterproductive in order to use it in my campaigns. That or I would base the healing surge off the Healer's max hit points instead.

ArgoForg wrote:It's definitely interesting, and on the whole, I like the idea, but I think-- whether he meant to or not-- Serleran brought up a good point about it.

Say an 8th level fighter and a 1st level thief, both hacked up in separate combats, go to the same 2nd level acolyte and receive a cure light wounds spell. Both regain 25% of their HP max.... say, 16 for the fighter, 2 for the rogue. After another fight, they enlist the aid of an 8th level priest, who also casts CLW. Again, they receive 16 and 2, respectively.

Now, it might just be me, and maybe I'm getting caught up in the numbers side of it, it seems odd to say that a cleric, regardless of level, would heal the same amount every time (until the target levels), or that the same spell would cure such a disparity of HP based on what level the target is, as opposed to the level of the caster.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea, but I think I personally would have to modify it to the point where the math might get counterproductive in order to use it in my campaigns. That or I would base the healing surge off the Healer's max hit points instead.

Here's my response to that:

Part the 1st: The spell already has that built in. RAW, if you cast Cure Light Wounds, whether acolyte or priest, you heal the same numerical value... 1d8. It does not, as written, matter the level of the caster.

Part the 2nd: Goes back to nomenclature. The spell is called "Cure light wounds". For a high-level, high-con fighter, 1 HP is a scratch, not even a wound. For a 1st level wizard, 1 HP could conceivably be half his HP, especially if he has a low Con. Having it cure "light" wounds, but basing it on non-relative numbers, rubs me the wrong way.

If I were to throw aspects of the healer into it, I'd be more inclined to add their level to the Surge Value. It still makes CLW from a high-level caster capable of vastly over-healing people, but stops the "let's wait for six days until we have enough CLWs to heal the fighter who got chewed half to death".

the benefit of this idea is that it does rescue those low-level spell slots from the oblivion that occurs once PCs reach mid to high level. So it's definitely worth thinking about.

Mark Hall wrote:Here's my response to that:

Part the 1st: The spell already has that built in. RAW, if you cast Cure Light Wounds, whether acolyte or priest, you heal the same numerical value... 1d8. It does not, as written, matter the level of the caster.

Part the 2nd: Goes back to nomenclature. The spell is called "Cure light wounds". For a high-level, high-con fighter, 1 HP is a scratch, not even a wound. For a 1st level wizard, 1 HP could conceivably be half his HP, especially if he has a low Con. Having it cure "light" wounds, but basing it on non-relative numbers, rubs me the wrong way.

If I were to throw aspects of the healer into it, I'd be more inclined to add their level to the Surge Value. It still makes CLW from a high-level caster capable of vastly over-healing people, but stops the "let's wait for six days until we have enough CLWs to heal the fighter who got chewed half to death".

I guess a lot of this would be based on the direction you look at it, and in this case, I'll just agree to disagree with you there. If you look at it from the high-level Fighter's point of view, yeah, 25 points of damage might be a considerable-- but nowhere near fatal-- bunch of wounding. From the aspect of a 2nd-level healer who has 12 hit points, 25 points is enough to kill him a couple times over.

And I think that's where I balk. The idea of a cleric regularly healing up two/three/four times his own hit point total works completely for making the game less about the grind of churning through resources and spells, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Although I'm sure it's a degree of apples to oranges, a wizard's fireball doesn't scale based on what HD he's attacking, it scales based on the wizard's expertise. And that's how I see the cleric.

In this case, that would be how I myself would work a 'healing surge'... rather than basing it off his target's % of HP, I would either base it off the healer's-- probably 50/100/150%, for light/serious/crit-- or adding/multiplying by level. d8+level or possibly even (1/2 level)d8. Again, not saying it's a good idea, but I'm thinking of trying to make the cleric a little less of a walking hospital, so I'll probably lean toward one of those solutions, myself.

While I can see your point, Argo, for me it comes down to the fact that HP are abstract. 25HP of damage doesn't float around out there (except on the wandering damage table)... it exists on a real person. For a fighter who has 40 HP, 25 points of damage represents some fairly serious wounding... he's definitely bleeding, but he's not about to fall over. On the other hand, to the person with 26 HP, 25 points of damage represents "beaten nearly to death". The difference comes in the skill and toughness of the person with the HP, and a cleric curing a "light" wound is going to fairly well patch up Mr. 40HP, but only get started one "Dear Gods, where are my teeth?"

Mark Hall wrote:

Relaxo wrote:

dunbruha wrote:That's an interesting idea, and I may well try it. Currently, my house rule is that all healing spells go for the full amount if they are cast in a non-threatening situation. If the caster cannot relax and concentrate on maximizing the spell (e.g., in combat), then a roll is made.

oh I like that!

I have been using something similar. Basically, healing spells have a minimum per die of the number of rounds spent casting them. Spend 8 rounds, and you'll always get 8 HP per spell.

hmmm... that looks pretty familiar.... I think that's where I got mine from originally. Oh well, imitation and flattery and all that.

dunbruha wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

Relaxo wrote:

dunbruha wrote:That's an interesting idea, and I may well try it. Currently, my house rule is that all healing spells go for the full amount if they are cast in a non-threatening situation. If the caster cannot relax and concentrate on maximizing the spell (e.g., in combat), then a roll is made.

oh I like that!

I have been using something similar. Basically, healing spells have a minimum per die of the number of rounds spent casting them. Spend 8 rounds, and you'll always get 8 HP per spell.

hmmm... that looks pretty familiar.... I think that's where I got mine from originally. Oh well, imitation and flattery and all that.

That's cool. I think I'll use that also. Thanks for sharing.

-Mike

If it works in your campaign, and your players don't mind, then houserule to your heart's content.

The logical inconstancy of the various Cure spells has actually bothered me for a long time. The same spell benefits characters of different Levels differently. "Cure Light Wounds" will close horrible, life-threatening gashes for a peasant, but won't heal the bruise of a hero!

I've thought about a solution similar to the OPs suggestion for implementing a "Surge"-like system in place. I would go with something like the following:

Cure Light Wounds: heals 1-2 hp per HD of creature healed.
Cure Serious Wounds: heals 1d4 hp per HD of creature healed.
Cure Critical Wounds: heals 1d6 hp per HD of creature healed.
Heal: as written.

I've never implemented it, however. Maybe part of me is just keeping with tradition. The other problem is, as mentioned by Geleg, that such a system makes CLW far less useful to low-Level characters, to whom it is usually a life-saver. Healing magic has always been relatively rare in my games, for a variety of reasons, and I prefer to focus on low to mid-level play. I've wanted to preserve the rush the players get when their low-level characters are fully healed by a mysterious elixir, and avoid certain death.

The other way, with the heal spells scaling, just makes too much logical sense, however.