Troll Lord Games

What if most magical swords, weapons and armor begin with a basic +1 enchantment, and mystically gain additional power through their participation in epic events? Most of the power of such items would come from their possessors, not their original enchantments. In essence, such items become relics of their legendary owners – which can mean the PCs themselves!

For example:

A sword +1 is a magical sword, perhaps one recently forged in Heaven, or by the Fairy Folk. If a PC purchases a magical weapon with his soul, or convinces a wizard to forge one, he receives a sword +1.

A sword +2 is a magical sword that has been used to defeat a notable opponent (famous, and of 4 HD or greater), or is known to have been the weapon of a notable person (4th Level or higher).

A sword +3 is a magical sword that has been used by a notable person to defeat a notable opponent.

A sword +4 has been wielded by a legendary figure (10th level or higher), or has defeated a legendary opponent (typically 10 HD or greater).

A sword +5 has been wielded by numerous legendary figures and/or has defeated numerous legendary opponents, or has been wielded by the physical form of a god.

Such a scheme would also mean that as the PCs gain in renown, becoming figures of legend themselves, their magical weapons become correspondingly more powerful. The sword +1 that was found by a Fighter at 1st level becomes a Sword +2 when he becomes notable at 4th Level, becomes a sword +3 when he uses it to slay a marauding giant, transforms into a sword +4 when the fighter becomes a legendary warrior at 10th Level, and finally becomes a sword +5 when that Fighter gains a cult of actual worshipers. This way, the CK can make the finding of a magical weapon or armor a truly memorable event, because the PC will never need to “trade-up”.

Such a scheme does take away the repeated thrill of finding new magical toys, but replaces it with a deeper, singular experience. Would your players want to see their own legend making their possession mystically more powerful, or do they actually prefer the rush of constantly finding more powerful enchanted items?

I suppose that's one way to approach it. But it's not one I would use. It's like leveling for weapons/armor...and that just doesn't seem right. I could see advancing a weapon for some significant event in the judgement of the CK, but to tie it to a set progression, no.

I actually had a campaign based on an idea similar to this. The characters found an axe that actually had embedded in it the spirit of an ancient dwarf king. The dwarven kingdom he ruled was over run by giants and their minions. The spirit gradually was awoken in the axe through a series of specific events, unbeknowst to the players, and it's Int and Ego increased, until ultimately it compelled the character possessing it to lead a campaign to reclaim the lost kingdom. The dwarf king at times took over the persona of the character, who roleplayed it out exceptionally well after I explained to him what was happening off session.

Now, this was an epic kind of event, not something I would use as a normal type of magic item/weapon use.

Now the more powerful a weapon, the more unique it is, the more likely I will write a backstory for it... even for just a "mundane" Sword +3...

I think it's a great idea, and lets you give Excalibur to young Arthur without making the game fall apart. Like most things of that sort though, I wouldn't necessarily tie it to fixed levels or events, since I'm not writing a rule book. I'd just bring it forward when the time seems right.

Pretty Classic idea actually. Bilbo Baggins' ring was simply a ring of invisibility in The Hobbit. But it was revealed to be much more over time.

Green Ronin put out a couple of books dealing with this idea as well - Artifacts of the Ages: Swords and Staves and the follow upu Artifacts Of The Ages: Rings You can find them on Amazon or Paizo for $2.00.

WOTC also put one out for D&D 3.5 called Weapons of Legacy, which according to one reviewer on Amazon, "Weapons of Legacy introduces new rules that allows a magic item to grow with the PC, allowing them to unlock new powers as they adventure. This way a simple +1 longsword can become your own personal Excalibur in time."

Apparently, there are ideas for this in Monte Cooks Books of Eldritch Might and in Earthdawn as well.

I guess there really is no such thing as a truly original idea! Of course, in art it's the presentation and expression that matter, not the idea itself. Otherwise, the works of Shakespeare would be remembered only for their highly derivative plots, rather than as the foundation of modern English literature.

My idea would really only apply to "+" items. I don't think a sword should suddenly gain the ability to burst into flame just because its welder gained an amount of personal power represented in the game by "9th Level". I'm thinking that a "magic sword" is a "magic sword", and that the mechanical difference between one that can damage anyone, and one that can damage a Demon Prince, is that the latter sword is the same one wielded by "Dzogore the Questionable" when he slew the infamous "Phlegm Demon of Qazoroth". If a player gets to be "Dzogore", so much the better.

Well, I like the basic idea...but would handle it according to what happens in game-play.
Say, for example, Barnabas with his (now) +2 sword fights an awesomely role-played battle against a fire elemental -- during which, he manages multiple saves .vs fire for half-damage. Then, I could CK that Barnabas's sword absorbed that flame-damage and now has a flaming-sword capability.
Or, perhaps one of the characters gets hit by a confusion effect and attacks Barnabas and Barnabas is forced to kill him. Maybe the character's soul now inhabits the sword, giving it his personality and ego.
I think you can see where I'm going with this...
Maybe another way to figure powering-up items (+2, +3, new-powers, etc.)
would be to work out some kind of SIEGE check to be done when the
item is involved in significant game events.

D&D has had a similar concept for almost, if not all, of its history -- one simply needs to look at the rings of elemental power which begin as having X power(s) but when exposed to a triggering condition become something more. Granted, it is not exactly the same, but the general idea is family. That is the way I would tend to do it... sure, it "might" get more powerful over time, but if a character never triggers the reaction, it won't matter anyway; I am not a fan of automagically getting anything simply for advancing a level (which is why I have some more in-depth training rules).

serleran wrote:D&D has had a similar concept for almost, if not all, of its history -- one simply needs to look at the rings of elemental power which begin as having X power(s) but when exposed to a triggering condition become something more. Granted, it is not exactly the same, but the general idea is family. That is the way I would tend to do it... sure, it "might" get more powerful over time, but if a character never triggers the reaction, it won't matter anyway; I am not a fan of automagically getting anything simply for advancing a level (which is why I have some more in-depth training rules).

The nice thing about C&C is that the world is your oyster, whatever fits your campaign vision. Having said that, my personal opinion (and nothing more) is that the characters should at least earn it, somehow (or pay for it). For example, D&D's Book of Exalted Deeds had an "Ancestral Relic" feat. It was basically a Craft feat, but designated for a specific item the character had. As the PC increased in level, so did the "Price" of the magic item he could enhance his Ancestral Relic to. The PC still had to spend a part of the price in "donations" or materials, and time in prayer/ritual, etc. So, it cost the PC time and money, but it was otherwise treated like Craft magic item feat.

Other options include possibly introducing "sockets" that can be gemmed, like World of Warcraft, or "tests" that unlock the weapons greater potential, etc. Lots of options, I would just be careful not to give such power outright, and at least find some sort of system where the characters must pay or perform tasks to gain the increase.

Good luck and have fun!

Rikitiki wrote:Well, I like the basic idea...but would handle it according to what happens in game-play.
Say, for example, Barnabas with his (now) +2 sword fights an awesomely role-played battle against a fire elemental -- during which, he manages multiple saves .vs fire for half-damage. Then, I could CK that Barnabas's sword absorbed that flame-damage and now has a flaming-sword capability.
Or, perhaps one of the characters gets hit by a confusion effect and attacks Barnabas and Barnabas is forced to kill him. Maybe the character's soul now inhabits the sword, giving it his personality and ego.
I think you can see where I'm going with this...
Maybe another way to figure powering-up items (+2, +3, new-powers, etc.)
would be to work out some kind of SIEGE check to be done when the
item is involved in significant game events.

I've been kicking the idea around and have been leaning toward the kind of set up that Riki mentions. A item will have basic magic power (+1, simple spell like ability etc.). As a player grows and through well fought (not necessarily won but well fought and role played) events the item will grow too and gain power. Also a "historically" powerful magic item will lose some of it's power over the ages of non use (lost in a dark corner of a goblin's hoard or in a crypt etc) but once found by a new and acceptable hero will begin to gain the powers and lead the player down a path to it's liking.

- Sir Olfred's legendary sword (+3/+5 vs Demons and with resistance to witchery spells) used to kill the Demon Gilshon and it's coven of hags/witches will be found as a +2ish sword. But as the party travels the new owner will have a feeling that dark magic is near and desire to hunt down the source (a hag and a few servant orgers) once the hag is dispatched the sword will "remember" how to counter some of the hag/witch spells etc. Eventually the sword will also become +3 etc etc and start to hunt down any demon in the area.

As for the hard and fast rules for this ????? not sure on this one.

Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde have bloodline items that are similar in concept. Each generation the weapon become more powerful and even gains sentience.

nwelte1 wrote:Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde have bloodline items that are similar in concept. Each generation the weapon become more powerful and even gains sentience.

Damn, I knew I should have bought that book!

clavis123 wrote:

nwelte1 wrote:Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde have bloodline items that are similar in concept. Each generation the weapon become more powerful and even gains sentience.

Damn, I knew I should have bought that book!

If it makes you feel better, it is a single magic item entry in the book. Pretty basic mechanic to the weapon. The 3.5 version of the weapon can be found in the Codex of Erde on page 219 if you have that book. I believe the M&T of Aihrde has a longer description.

redwullf wrote:[
The nice thing about C&C is that the world is your oyster, whatever fits your campaign vision. Having said that, my personal opinion (and nothing more) is that the characters should at least earn it, somehow (or pay for it). For example, D&D's Book of Exalted Deeds had an "Ancestral Relic" feat. It was basically a Craft feat, but designated for a specific item the character had. As the PC increased in level, so did the "Price" of the magic item he could enhance his Ancestral Relic to. The PC still had to spend a part of the price in "donations" or materials, and time in prayer/ritual, etc. So, it cost the PC time and money, but it was otherwise treated like Craft magic item feat.

Other options include possibly introducing "sockets" that can be gemmed, like World of Warcraft, or "tests" that unlock the weapons greater potential, etc. Lots of options, I would just be careful not to give such power outright, and at least find some sort of system where the characters must pay or perform tasks to gain the increase.

Good luck and have fun!

I like redwulf's suggestions, here. And I've used things similar to some of them in the past. It can work really well, if played up properly.

Like the WoW/Diablo2 "gemming" thing. If you make it part of a system from the get-go and include the magic gems in treasure troves, they just become part of how the world and its magic works. This would also allow PCs to start adding things like "flaming" or "frost" or "life stealing" to an item.

Hell, all "magic" weapons and/or armors/shields could just be items with 1-3 "gem slots".

Lord Crimson wrote:Like the WoW/Diablo2 "gemming" thing. If you make it part of a system from the get-go and include the magic gems in treasure troves, they just become part of how the world and its magic works. This would also allow PCs to start adding things like "flaming" or "frost" or "life stealing" to an item.

Hell, all "magic" weapons and/or armors/shields could just be items with 1-3 "gem slots".

I have done this in many, if not all of my games, since Diablo II came out. Players seem to love this aspect to upping weapon's powers. However, I don't really get into the detail of this too much. If I recall, isn't there a good chart in Gary Gygax's World Builder which may also help with this (in relation to gems)?

Another way to enhance a magic weapon's abilities through play is through a series of rituals or something like that. In my games there are a series of magical/elenmental fonts that appear throughout the setting. If the PC learns of the ritual or precise method of how to use these fonts, a magical weapon can be placed in the font to gain a new ability. Sometimes the fonts bestow a negative aspect along with a positive one. Other times, these fonts come with a price one must pay to enhance the weapon.

~O

If you guys were going to use this in a game, would you explain it to the players first, or let them discover it as game went on?

zarathustra wrote:If you guys were going to use this in a game, would you explain it to the players first, or let them discover it as game went on?

Discovery.

nwelte1 wrote:

zarathustra wrote:If you guys were going to use this in a game, would you explain it to the players first, or let them discover it as game went on?

Discovery.

Agreed - no freebies, and it gives the CK additional story/adventure options.

"Though the sword seems finely crafted, it also appears ancient in design. There are spaces on the pommel and guard where it appears gems used to be, but they have long since been pried out or lost in battle."

I would probably tell the players from the beginning that the increasing power of magical arms and armor is going to be a feature of the campaign.

I wouldn't use the "gem-slot" idea. To me, it seems too mechanistic and mundane, and I prefer my magic to be strange and mysterious. I don't like thinking of an enchanted sword as gear to be upgraded.

Perhaps the increase of an item's power should be an actual class ability, replicating how an object gains power through association with its owner's mystique. For example, any enchanted weapon or armor used consistently by a 10th Level Fighter (who is "Legendary" by the Legend Lore spell) might gain an additional plus or two, by virtue of now being a relic of a Legendary figure. For Knights, maybe only swords, lances, or "knightly" armors would gain in power that way. Similarly for Rangers and Barbarians ( i.e., only items typically associated with their class).

I wouldn't use the "gem-slot" idea. To me, it seems too mechanistic and mundane, and I prefer my magic to be strange and mysterious. I don't like thinking of an enchanted sword as gear to be upgraded.

Clavis. I agree with you on this one.

The only way I would use gems to "upgrade" a magic item is like Gandalf's staff in the movie. i.e. having a few gems that add to the staff's power like a white guy enhancing any light spells/effects, a pearl enhancing any water like spells etc. Also, even in those situations there would have had to be a role playing back story for it. Something like after fighting and defeating some salamanders a item in the treasure they find is a perfect but uncut ruby or piece of Obsidian. The mage realizes that if treated properly the item will be more powerful than its current GP value so gives up part of his share for the unworked gem. And after he has a chance to get a master gem cutter to cut it, does some magic ceremonies etc on it. Presto an addition to the staff he used in the fight.
Clerics would be similar but the ceremonies would be religious other than magic.

For fighters, thieves etc that kind of upgrade would be more infrequent. It would be more a function of a key event in a key fight or a long term focus of the player.

Interesting ideas...

I think I would introduce a new classification of magic item - one that doesn't start with any powers, but it is sensitive to events where it is present. It's a quality that is imbued when the item is enchanted to adapt to the owner's experiences. So, the item would start out as detecting magic, but over the course of several adventures, may gain an ability that reflects the character's experience. Call it a "X of Tabula Rasa"

For example, a tank fighter that is constantly knocked negative might have this ring, and after 3 levels or so, it might gain the ability to either add 2 to his AC or prevent damage into the negatives, once per day.

Lurker wrote: The only way I would use gems to "upgrade" a magic item is like Gandalf's staff in the movie. i.e. having a few gems that add to the staff's power like a white guy enhancing any light spells/effects, a pearl enhancing any water like spells etc. Also, even in those situations there would have had to be a role playing back story for it. Something like after fighting and defeating some salamanders a item in the treasure they find is a perfect but uncut ruby or piece of Obsidian. The mage realizes that if treated properly the item will be more powerful than its current GP value so gives up part of his share for the unworked gem. And after he has a chance to get a master gem cutter to cut it, does some magic ceremonies etc on it. Presto an addition to the staff he used in the fight.
Clerics would be similar but the ceremonies would be religious other than magic.

Well, I probably wouldn't make it that "every ruby = magical upgrade". "Improvement Gems" would just be another type of magic item - specially treated and cut and created in the first place. But common enough because of the usefulness of their modularity.

But yeah, it's not something that would fit into every game or setting. It's a taste thing.

If I'm playing something where I want the PCs to have some level of control over their magic items, or allow them to modify an existing magic axe rather than replacing it with a more "plussed" magic mace, or just have them choose a signature weapon, "slot-able" magic boosts would be the preference.

If I'm playing a game where I want PCs to consider every magic weapon an invaluable tool to aid them as they delve into lost tombs and temples... Well, then I probably won't give them so many options.

And swords that have a personality actually have a personality: like that scene in The Fellowship of the Ring when Boromir is dying and Aragorn puts Boromir's sword in his hands -- but game-wise, Boromir's soul transfers into the sword due to the heroic/dynamic/well-role-played event.

Or, consider the poor, hunchbacked (or otherwise afflicted) person who always longed to be a hero, go adventuring, etc, and willingly lets the magic-sword enchanter perform the rite that locks them into the sword -- now they get their desire and, hence, a sentient/personality sword is made.

Or, perhaps swords with personalities have them because the gem on the hilt (or elsewhere) is used as the gem for the spell "Trap the Soul" (if I'm remembering the spell right; I don't have my books here).

That kinda thing...

I first saw this idea in FASA's Earthdawn, where every magic item had a history, both heroic and tragic and as the character learned the history and completed tasks in the honor of the itme, it grew more powerful. In effect, the item becomes a campaign in and of itself. I have used this for my magic items ever since because I loved it so much.

There are a number of ways one could enhance a magic item without using the levels as the key mechanic directly. In the past I've had items become enhanced or further enchanted through a number of various means. Having it reforged by thankful demi-humans, blessings from the gods, laying the item in an enchanted pool of a special location, bathing blades in dragons fire, blood or some other magical material that imbues the weapon, etc. I've found that this allows the DM to toss in a "level up" for items without being so blatant about it. The PCs get to feel as if their items are really becoming something of their own hard work and effort and it also helps to keep the clutter of magic items to a minimum.

One aspect I really like to have in my games is rare magical items. This approach allows for such so that there isn't a rotation of hoping to get the next best upgrade down the line and tossing the old one aside.

I did something similar in a game once where the PCs had found a pair of swords that they really liked... but once the PCs leveled up a bit the swords seemed a little weak-sauce.

So, at the end of the next adventure where they killed the avatar of a forgotten god, I explained that the swords had absorbed some of his essence - boosting them back up so that they were "cool" again.

The Midnight campaign setting (for D&D 3E) has something similar. They're called Covenant Items. They're magic items (including weapons, armor, etc), that grow with the character. Iirc, it's based on level. That is, if you get it at 1st level, it has a basic power (just a +1 bonus perhaps), then when you reach 3rd level, it might gain another ability (can create fires perhaps). By 10th level maybe it could launch fireballs. Etc. Each item is entirely unique and usually has a theme (in my example, fire).

-Fizz

Yup, Fizz has it exactly right. Covenant items had different powers that would unlock as a character grew in level. The really nice thing - as has been mentioned - is that a player can really grow attached to a weapon or item he receives as an heirloom or finds early in his career. I mean, if a fighter finds a +1 sword in his first dungeon crawl, he'll usually find something better or be able to buy something better relatively quickly. If it's a +1 sword that vibrates in the presence of evil characters at Level 2, turns to unbreakable ice and causes cold damage at Level 4, casts some kind of cold spell at Level 8, etc... then the character will have a weapon he can always use.

The idea is so cool, it's pretty much going to always find its way into any campaign I run.

I'd even, as a DM, probably not allow anyone except who the item 'attunes to' use the powers, and other than being able to tell WHAT level new powers appear, no spells or other methods will be able to say what those powers will be - effectively the item will only reveal powers to one that's deemed worthy.